D&D Wiki - User contributions [en]

Category:North Carolina

2009-09-02T02:14:33Z

Flession:

[[Category:United States of America]]

Greensboro, NC -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 20:14, 1 September 2009 (MDT)

Talk:Tinkering Artificer (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

2009-09-02T02:05:42Z

Flession: /* Metamagics */

== Metamagics ==

Perhaps Split Ray / Twin Spell for even more metamagic madness with wands? (Scorching Ray comes to mind) --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 18:34, 26 August 2009 (MDT)
:Perhaps considering to toss in the Reach Spell from the [[Complete Divine]] would be a good idea. Healing your defenders from up to 30 feet away with your repair spells could be vital when they're on their last bits of HP. -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 20:05, 1 September 2009 (MDT)

== Race ==

Be sure to mention the Warforged racial substitution levels in Races of Eberron; I don't remember it off-hand, but I do remember them being excellent. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 18:36, 26 August 2009 (MDT)

Talk:Captain America (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

2009-09-01T02:20:34Z

Flession: /* Deletion */

== Improved Unarmed Strike ==

Are you telling me [http://www.marveldatabase.com/Captain_America_%28Steve_Rogers%29 Captain America] didn't have [[Improved Unarmed Strike]]? —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 13:15, 1 August 2007 (MDT)

: Ya, I know he does. Unfortunately, the tournament demands that I have to be 11th level, thus it doesn't allow me to go for that. If I were to continue this build to 20th level, you bet your ass he would get that as well as [[Improved Grapple]] and [[Improved Natural Attack]]. Maybe even more in for some monk levels. -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 14:08, 1 August 2007 (MDT)

:: You're missing your level 4 fighter bonus feat. You can take improved unarmed strike with that. -- (Jarrod)

::: No, it's that Shield Throw is at the wrong level. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 09:41, 16 March 2008 (MDT)

::::However, this build is missing the feat gained at 6th-level. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 10:37, 16 March 2008 (MDT)

:::::Thanks for pointing that out. I guess I have [[Improved Unarmed Strike]] now :) -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 00:44, 27 June 2008 (MDT)

What about the bloodstorm blade PRC from Tome of Battle? Couple neat abilities in there:

Returning Attacks (Ex): You can hurl your weapon at a
foe and command it to ricochet back to you. Any weapon you
throw behaves as though it has the returning special ability
(DMG 225).
When you use returning attacks, you lose the use of one
Iron Heart strike you have readied for the current encounter,
just as if you had initiated the strike (except you do
not also gain the strike’s normal effect). Once you use this
ability, you can recover the maneuver you expended and
use it normally.
Throw Anything: As an initiate of the mysteries of the
bloodstorm technique, you learn to throw swords as easily
as others hurl daggers. You gain Throw Anything (see the
sidebar) as a bonus feat.

That is quite a good ability. You just need to find a DM that will actually allow Tome of Battle. It is quite the twinked book, you know. -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 01:06, 31 January 2009 (MST)

Wouldn't a spiked bashing shield be 3d6 damage? 1d6 for normal >1d8 for spiked, >3d6 Bashing Spiked?
:Ahh. I didn't notice that, Thank you mystery person! -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 20:02, 30 August 2009 (MDT)

: No, it wouldn't because a normal Medium [[SRD:Heavy Shield|heavy shield]] does 1d4, not 1d6. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]] 20:16, 30 August 2009 (MDT)

== Deletion ==

How is there no optimization involved with this build? You have a decently ranged, damaging, sundering shield that returns to you. Most bows don't get that high without certain tricks attached to it (although they shoot farther, yes). You keep the maximum BAB, have a decent reflex. It's not like a certain Kobold build, but this one can be quite effective in combat. I've tested it out already and I got pretty damn far in that contest with it. -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 20:12, 30 August 2009 (MDT)

:A user known as Ghostwheel did this to alot of build pages. Don't worry, as long as you are around to defend, nothing's going to happen. --[[User:TheWarforgedArtificer|TheWarforgedArtificer]] 20:15, 30 August 2009 (MDT)

::Ahh good. I do wish I could be around more, but since work blocked out my useage of this site, I can only get on here with my own personal time. I love this site. However, if someone comes around and tries to delete my stuff without good reason, you can bet your ass I'll make time. :) -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 20:25, 30 August 2009 (MDT)

::: Compare the damage to [[Machine_Gun_Assassin_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29|other]] [[Shower_of_Arrows_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29|ranged]] damage builds. Furthermore, at the listed level the weapon costs 34k gp which by itself is more than half the wealth a character has at that level. Furthermore, since you're not carrying multiple shields and throwing each one, you can only throw your shield 1/round, which means that tops you're doing around 3d6+str (x1.5?) damage in a single round--if you hit. At level 11, that's far from optimized. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 21:14, 30 August 2009 (MDT)

::::In this case, I think, the optimization is how closely it emulates Captain America, rather than strictly how strong it is in game terms. Optimized doesn't specifically refer to what is optimized, so, well, I don't know, it's a little fishy. Under that logic we could allow most of the optimizations you (Ghostwheel) called half-optimizations or non-optimizations (such as the Reflexman), they just wouldn't have gameplay significance... perhaps we could tag them with April Fools instead? Or maybe some other (new) category that denotes optimization without practical application? For example, a player wants to be a ninja (Naruto). Rather than making a new class, there could be an optimization called Ninja, Naruto that's something like Monk 2/Rogue 6/Swordsage 6/Warlock 6 (just pulling numbers and class out of my ass). Maybe just call the new category Category:Character Build, and optimized ones could be a subcategory? -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 21:26, 30 August 2009 (MDT)

::::: Good idea--perhaps a "flavorful optimization" category? That way those builds and [[Z_Fighter_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)|others too]] can be added to it, where they would try to show off a concept rather than actual optimization (which is all about the numbers, and flavor is assumed to be [[Hero_of_Time_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)|mutable]]). --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 21:30, 30 August 2009 (MDT)

::::::Yeah, I don't really care what you want to call it, just something to that effect. -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 22:00, 30 August 2009 (MDT)

::::::: I don't know how to make a category, or I would... How does one do so? --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 22:02, 30 August 2009 (MDT)

:::::::: A "The Super Flavor Build Optimization Category of Epic Fabulous-i-ness, without Onions or Pickles". (...Its a work-in-progress title) --[[User:Jay Freedman|Jay Freedman]] 22:06, 30 August 2009 (MDT)

{{Discussion Indentation Revert}}

:[http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Special:CreateCategory Category Creation]. I'd do it myself, but I really need to be getting to sleep as soon as possible. -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 23:40, 30 August 2009 (MDT)

::This was a good idea, maybe we should break down the difference on the main Optimized Builds page too.  [[User:Hooper|''' Hooper ''']][[User talk:Hooper|  talk  ]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|  contribs  ]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|  email  ]] 07:37, 31 August 2009 (MDT)

::: That is something agreeable. As I said, I made this for a tournament that we had to come up with a really cheesy character build. Combat wise, I really only needed 1 shot per round. With the master thrower 5, hitting two people at once made this thing deadly. Plus, destroying weapons, armor, etc, from that far of a range made it survive 26 rounds of HARDCORE cheese. It fought against a [Dragon subtype [[SRD:Shambling Mound|Shambling Mound]], trapped in a cage made that sprung constant electrical damage to boost up its CON and make its breath weapon even deadlier. Thanks to the 60 foot range I got from it, I managed to take it out from afar, it saved our asses. Don't underestimate shield throwers. But, yea, it's basically a Captain America, so if you wanna toss it in another location, then do so. I just don't want to delete it, as it is a powerful build in the right hands. --[[User:Flession|Flession]] 20:20, 31 August 2009 (MDT)

Talk:Captain America (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

2009-08-31T02:25:07Z

Flession: /* Deletion */

Talk:Captain America (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

2009-08-31T02:12:18Z

Flession: New section: Deletion

Talk:Captain America (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

2009-08-31T02:02:11Z

Flession:

Z Fighter (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

2009-08-31T01:53:33Z

Flession: /* Munchkin-Size Me */

{{author
|author_name= Flession
|date_created= 10/8/07
|status= Always Working
}}

== Introduction ==
Ever felt like your character wasn't cheesy enough? That what your character needs is a repetitive, constantly constipated fighter that shouts all of his attacks, yet enemies are still very surprised what they are doing? Ever wanted to shout really, REALLY, loud and have a gigantic aura of energy spout from your body?

Well, have I got a build for '''''you'''''!!

With three easy payments of $12,000 gp, you two can experience what it's like when it takes 10 minutes before a planet blows up and let that moment last 4 weeks in real life! Yes, ladies and gents, I bring you, the Z Fighter build!!! *pauses for dramatic music*

== References ==
{| class="d20" style="text-align: left;"
|+ Books Needed
! Non SRD Item !! Book Found In
|-
| Fiery Fist|| Player's Handbook II
|- class="even"
| Fiery Ki Defense|| Player's Handbook II
|-
| Ki Blast || Players Handbook II
|- class="even"
| Raptorans || Races of the Wild
|-
| Versatile Unarmed Strike|| Players Handbook II
|- class="even"
| Raptorans || Races of the Wild
|}

== Game Rule Components ==

=== Race and Templates ===
Raptorans

=== Classes ===
[[SRD:Monk (Class)|Monk]], [[Ki Master (DnD Prestige Class)|Ki Master]] (Optional, especially after it gets tweaked...alot)

=== Feats ===


Fiery Fist, Fiery Ki Defense, Ki Blast, [[SRD:Hover (Feat)|Hover]], [[SRD:Flyby Attack (Feat)|Flyby Attack]], any additional flying attack maneuvers

=== Spells, Powers, Items ===
Fast Movement, defiantly aids you with this build. Any other method of increasing your speed makes this build insane.
=== Miscellaneous ===
Flying rules, which is why I love the Raptoran race. By level 10th level, you can fly without effort. Just imagine how cool it is to just be able to fly around throwing energy balls at someone

== Progression ==

Wisdom, of course, is the way to go. Strength increases your carrying weight, for when you reach medium load and above, you fall. Everything else is your own decision.

{| class="d20" style="text-align: left;"
|-
! ECL !! Class/HD/LA !! Feats !! Special
|-
| 1st || [[SRD:Monk (Class)|Monk]] || [[SRD:Stunning Fist (Feat)|Stunning Fist]], Whatever|| As Per Monk
|- class="even"
| 2nd || [[SRD:Monk (Class)|Monk]] || Fiery Fist (Bonus Feat) || As Per Monk
|-
| 3rd || [[SRD:Monk (Class)|Monk]] || None || As Per Monk
|- class="even"
| 4th || [[SRD:Monk (Class)|Monk]] || None || As Per Monk
|-
| 5th || [[SRD:Monk (Class)|Monk]] || None|| As Per Monk
|- class="even"
| 6th || [[SRD:Monk (Class)|Monk]] || [[SRD:Hover (Feat)|Hover]] || As Per Monk
|-
| 7th || [[SRD:Monk (Class)|Monk]] || None || As Per Monk
|- class="even"
| 8th || [[SRD:Monk (Class)|Monk]] || Ki Blast|| As Per Monk
|-
| 9th || [[SRD:Monk (Class)|Monk]] || [[SRD:Deflect Arrows (Feat)|Deflect Arrows]], or other fun options... || As Per Monk
|- class="even"
| 10th || [[SRD:Monk (Class)|Monk]] || None || As Per Monk
|-
|}

== Highlights ==

Highlights...well, other than being a really cheesy character, you know, flying around shooting blasts of raw ki energy...doing damage left and right (12 max at lvl 10. You get 2 extra stunning fist attacks, which are the costs for the feats) I've decided to add Deflect Arrows to the mix because out of many options, it's a great idea to eliminate one of the main ways of actually attacking your character while in flight. Magic spells and such like that, of course, are still a option, but by 13th level, you're going to have spell resistance and [[SRD:Evasion and Improved Evasion|Improved Evasion]] well before that time so it's gonna be tough for that regard.

Regardless of what level you take it, you will need Flyby Attack for this. You're flying around well beyond normal PC speeds. Plus, you got a nonspecific energy attack that does 3d6 a hit. At 10th level you can do some serious damage to them before you even need to go down and finish the job.

== Munchkin-Size Me ==



Air Heritage would increase the build by making you move 30 feet faster.

== Side Notes ==



=== Limitations ===

Open field helps with this build. However, if you're unable to fly, you got yourself in a big loss.

=== DM Counters ===

There are plenty of spells, especially one that actually grounds a flying being. If you pull this, they go down and make them a monk without grappling or other fun stuff. Especially if they focus the rest of their feats on flying stuff.

=== Miscellaneous ===
 

----
{{3.5e Optimized Character Builds Breadcrumb}}
[[Category:DnD]]
[[Category:User]]
[[Category:Optimized Character Build]]
[[Category:Third Party Rules]]

Z Fighter (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

2009-08-31T01:53:17Z

Flession: /* Munchkin-Size Me */

{{author
|author_name= Flession
|date_created= 10/8/07
|status= Always Working
}}

== Introduction ==
Ever felt like your character wasn't cheesy enough? That what your character needs is a repetitive, constantly constipated fighter that shouts all of his attacks, yet enemies are still very surprised what they are doing? Ever wanted to shout really, REALLY, loud and have a gigantic aura of energy spout from your body?

Well, have I got a build for '''''you'''''!!

With three easy payments of $12,000 gp, you two can experience what it's like when it takes 10 minutes before a planet blows up and let that moment last 4 weeks in real life! Yes, ladies and gents, I bring you, the Z Fighter build!!! *pauses for dramatic music*

== References ==
{| class="d20" style="text-align: left;"
|+ Books Needed
! Non SRD Item !! Book Found In
|-
| Fiery Fist|| Player's Handbook II
|- class="even"
| Fiery Ki Defense|| Player's Handbook II
|-
| Ki Blast || Players Handbook II
|- class="even"
| Raptorans || Races of the Wild
|-
| Versatile Unarmed Strike|| Players Handbook II
|- class="even"
| Raptorans || Races of the Wild
|}

== Game Rule Components ==

=== Race and Templates ===
Raptorans

=== Classes ===
[[SRD:Monk (Class)|Monk]], [[Ki Master (DnD Prestige Class)|Ki Master]] (Optional, especially after it gets tweaked...alot)

=== Feats ===


Fiery Fist, Fiery Ki Defense, Ki Blast, [[SRD:Hover (Feat)|Hover]], [[SRD:Flyby Attack (Feat)|Flyby Attack]], any additional flying attack maneuvers

=== Spells, Powers, Items ===
Fast Movement, defiantly aids you with this build. Any other method of increasing your speed makes this build insane.
=== Miscellaneous ===
Flying rules, which is why I love the Raptoran race. By level 10th level, you can fly without effort. Just imagine how cool it is to just be able to fly around throwing energy balls at someone

== Progression ==

Wisdom, of course, is the way to go. Strength increases your carrying weight, for when you reach medium load and above, you fall. Everything else is your own decision.

{| class="d20" style="text-align: left;"
|-
! ECL !! Class/HD/LA !! Feats !! Special
|-
| 1st || [[SRD:Monk (Class)|Monk]] || [[SRD:Stunning Fist (Feat)|Stunning Fist]], Whatever|| As Per Monk
|- class="even"
| 2nd || [[SRD:Monk (Class)|Monk]] || Fiery Fist (Bonus Feat) || As Per Monk
|-
| 3rd || [[SRD:Monk (Class)|Monk]] || None || As Per Monk
|- class="even"
| 4th || [[SRD:Monk (Class)|Monk]] || None || As Per Monk
|-
| 5th || [[SRD:Monk (Class)|Monk]] || None|| As Per Monk
|- class="even"
| 6th || [[SRD:Monk (Class)|Monk]] || [[SRD:Hover (Feat)|Hover]] || As Per Monk
|-
| 7th || [[SRD:Monk (Class)|Monk]] || None || As Per Monk
|- class="even"
| 8th || [[SRD:Monk (Class)|Monk]] || Ki Blast|| As Per Monk
|-
| 9th || [[SRD:Monk (Class)|Monk]] || [[SRD:Deflect Arrows (Feat)|Deflect Arrows]], or other fun options... || As Per Monk
|- class="even"
| 10th || [[SRD:Monk (Class)|Monk]] || None || As Per Monk
|-
|}

== Highlights ==

Highlights...well, other than being a really cheesy character, you know, flying around shooting blasts of raw ki energy...doing damage left and right (12 max at lvl 10. You get 2 extra stunning fist attacks, which are the costs for the feats) I've decided to add Deflect Arrows to the mix because out of many options, it's a great idea to eliminate one of the main ways of actually attacking your character while in flight. Magic spells and such like that, of course, are still a option, but by 13th level, you're going to have spell resistance and [[SRD:Evasion and Improved Evasion|Improved Evasion]] well before that time so it's gonna be tough for that regard.

Regardless of what level you take it, you will need Flyby Attack for this. You're flying around well beyond normal PC speeds. Plus, you got a nonspecific energy attack that does 3d6 a hit. At 10th level you can do some serious damage to them before you even need to go down and finish the job.

== Munchkin-Size Me ==



Air Heritage would increase the build by making you move 30 feet faster. -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 19:53, 30 August 2009 (MDT)

== Side Notes ==



=== Limitations ===

Open field helps with this build. However, if you're unable to fly, you got yourself in a big loss.

=== DM Counters ===

There are plenty of spells, especially one that actually grounds a flying being. If you pull this, they go down and make them a monk without grappling or other fun stuff. Especially if they focus the rest of their feats on flying stuff.

=== Miscellaneous ===
 

----
{{3.5e Optimized Character Builds Breadcrumb}}
[[Category:DnD]]
[[Category:User]]
[[Category:Optimized Character Build]]
[[Category:Third Party Rules]]

Talk:Z Fighter (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

2009-08-31T01:49:58Z

Flession: /* Commentary */

== Commentary ==

Bha ha ha ha ha ha ha! '''XD'''

This made me smile, and honorable mention too. If you have any ideas on tweaking Ki Master, do tell. I'm mostly just adding and trying to balance their unique spells. Hee hee. -- [[User:Eiji|Eiji]] 21:47, 9 October 2007 (MDT)

:When I get more time, I'll gladly help you out. I have quite a few ideas that may help the class. Till then, however, I best be finishing this build up. -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 11:13, 12 October 2007 (MDT)

::Might I suggest the Air Heritage feat from Planar Handbook? It adds and additional 30 ft. to your fly speed, with no requirements.-[[User:Risek|Risek]] 10:55, 16 September 2008 (MDT)
:::Ooo...that's a good idea. Of course, I'd want to do that at higher, more powerful levels. This build merely gets you where you need to get to this where you can start doing what the main build does. After that, the sky's the limit. I'll toss this feat into the Munchkin-Size me, though. -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 19:49, 30 August 2009 (MDT)

Requests for Adminship/Surgo

2009-04-03T13:25:43Z

Flession: /* Surgo */

===[[Requests for Adminship/Surgo|Surgo]]===

----

'''[{{fullurl:Requests for Adminship/Surgo|action=edit}} Voice your opinion]'''
'''(7/0/3) 100% Approval; Ending 9:37 (PM), 5 April 2009 (EDT)'''

I'm nominating myself for exactly two reasons:
* Old candidates for deletion never get deleted. Spring Cleaning is really overdue on the wiki.
* I have a bot that's long overdue to run which moves the entire DnD pseudo-namespace to 3.5e cleanly, rigorously, and completely. It also needs admin privileges to run.

;Questions for the candidate
Dear candidate, thank you for offering to serve D&D Wiki in this capacity. Please take the time to answer a few generic questions to provide guidance for voters:
:'''1.''' What sysop chores do you anticipate helping with? Please read the page about [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators administrators] and the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_reading_list administrators' reading list] on Wikipedia before answering.

::'''A:''' I will do ''exactly'' the following:
::* Clean out candidates for deletion that are past their date (but not ones that have active arguments going on).
::* Speedy delete those annoying nothing-but-the-preload, stub pages.
::* Create and run bots to do big, automated tasks that need doing but can be entirely automated (like the moving of the DnD pseudo-namespace).
::* Lock pages that people want locked, fix typos and stuff in locked pages, etc.

::I also think it's important to say what I will ''not'' do. I will ''not'' ban users (except to temporarily block IPs for vandalism). I will ''not'' expect anyone to treat me any differently because of admin status. I will ''not'' ever use the status to bully anyone, and I ''will'' expect people to argue with me in exactly the same capacity as they did before my adminship (if I get adminned, of course). I will ''not'' use admin status as a badge of any sort. I feel this needs to be said in my case because I know I'm a bit abrasive in a no-nonsense fashion, and I'm aware that that can (and has) rub people the wrong way.

:'''2.''' Of your articles or contributions to D&D Wiki, are there any with which you are particularly pleased, and why?

::'''A:''' Uploading countless awesome [[:Category:Tome]] stuff. Still in the process of formatting the four sourcebooks to be completely awesome, readable, and FA-worthy. A lot of my contributions come in the form of balance critiques in The Tavern.

:'''3.''' Have you been in any conflicts over editing in the past or do you feel other users have caused you stress? How have you dealt with it and how will you deal with it in the future?

::'''A:''' I have minor conflicts all the time over things like balance. They've never caused me or (to my awareness) anyone else lasting grief. I have these conflicts with people I consider (and who consider me) friends. I don't think they're a big deal. Just part of my abrasive nature.

;General comments

I want to do '''very''' specific tasks as an admin. These tasks mainly involve deleting candidates for deletion (something that is long overdue and nobody is really doing), and creating and running bots. Other minor admin tasks when requested. '''Never''' using adminship in my interactions with any users.

----



'''Discussion'''

'''Support'''

* '''Support''': I think Surgo would be an useful admin to the wiki, he already proved his worth and desire to improve the community many time.--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:11, 29 March 2009 (MDT)

* '''Support''': He's active, and while he doesn't have the best thought out arguements, he does have strong opinions. I say give him a whack at it. --[[User:Ganre|Ganre]] 00:56, 30 March 2009 (MDT)

* '''Support''': Some people may remember my comment on [[Requests for Adminship/Hooper|this page]] that, as a rule of thumb, I would never support someone who nominated themselves, but, this is an exception. I say this because this website needs Surgo. Surgo is here to delete things that have been rotting in the "delete me" box for far too long, which, is something that all admins should be doing. Also, I personally don't use flaws/traits, and so, have not cared about the ongoing discussions that have arrisen therein. Though, I have read them, and I must point out to anyone who wishes to keep the flaws that have been proposed for deletion in the wiki, that they all pretty much have roleplaying based detriments, now then, a person might ask why this is a problem, and I must point out why it is. It is because not all DM's are clever, not all PC's are going to play the flaw correctly, there is a titanic split down the center of these flaws that is unavoidable and irrevocable. A DM might butcher what would otherwise be an interesting situation. Now then, should their games be utterly decimated because they had a momentary lapse in judgement? Of course not. Therefore, roleplaying-based flaws cannot be allowed on this website. Surgo would not get rid of the entertaining parts of the wiki, he would merely get rid of the stains that people splatter across it, such as classes that are pure preload, or templates that have so little information that its not even funny (or, flaws that go against the guidelines that Wizards of the Coast themselves layed down, and yes, every single one of those flaws that were nominated for deletion does exactly that). I personally want people to come to this website and find things right off the bat that they would like to play, instead of finding the junkyard that is the base class page. As I said above, this website needs Surgo. → [[User:Rithaniel|Rith]] [[User talk:Rithaniel|(talk)]] 01:29, 30 March 2009 (MDT)

* '''Support:''' Giving him a crack at adminship won't hurt the general quality of dandwiki. That, and he possesses the qualities that an admin is required to have. And, as an aside I'd probably delete a dumb flaw like Penguin Fear too if I were in the position to. This is a repository of D&D articles, not a funny bin, and even for the funny stuff we have an April Fools category. I don't see the problem that sparked the discussion below. --[[User:Sulacu|Sulacu]] 01:56, 30 March 2009 (MDT)

* '''Support:''' Well, he only plans to be an admin for cleanup reasons. We definitely could use another hand with that -- especially from an active user. --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 08:06, 1 April 2009 (MDT)

* '''Support:''' Despite his self-acknowledged personality quirks, Surgo is a great supportive character in the great play of DandWiki. I think his adherance to honesty in his judgments and desire for the site to be presentable, functional, and friendly would be a great asset to us by promoting him to SysOp status. In addition to his proclaimed desires for adminship, I'm sure his capacity would stretch further, not only in carrying out article deletion policies as they are currently presented, but also to helping those who require assistance as newcomers to the site or newcomers to D&D, as many of us do in the [[Special:TheTavern|Tavern]]. His assistance, I'm sure, would be instrumental in keeping balance prevalent throughout the multitudes of DandWiki articles and in the construction of many great additions to the Homebrew, and potentially to the SRD, of the site. I fully support Surgo's request for adminship. -[[User:Valentine the Rogue|Valentine the Rogue]] 21:47, 1 April 2009 (MDT)

* '''Support:''' I agree with Surgo being an admin, we really need to keep up-to date with the wiki and Surgo can help us achieve that. --[[User:Sabre070|Sabre070]] 23:08, 1 April 2009 (MDT)

'''Oppose'''

* '''Oppose (Now withdrawn, see below)''': Were Surgo made an admin he would happily delete half the flaw list, I say this because he has already put many of them up as candidates for deletion. If something isn't quite right, that doesn't mean it's a bad idea, just that it needs editing. I have used or am currently using 70% of the flaws he's currently trying to kill. I haven't seen much of his other work but this is more then enough for me to oppose his request for adminship. ([[User:THEM|THEM]] 23:18, 29 March 2009 (MDT))

::I don't quite understand this vote. I said pretty clearly that I wouldn't be deleting anything that had a currently active argument going on. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 23:20, 29 March 2009 (MDT)

:::THEM, currently the flaw policies is with Surgo, it would be appropriate if you withdraw your vote. Or perhaps give another reason.--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 23:23, 29 March 2009 (MDT)

::::Answer me this and I'll consider withdrawing my comments. What constitutes as an "active argument"? Due to the pile of fail that is my laptop I can't be on much, so I haven't been able to reply to several of the objections to the flaws. Does this mean that some of them will be deleted before I can get to them? It certainly seems to be a possibility. The D&D Wiki is a big place, and most users tend to ignore the "candidate for deletion box". Brilliant ideas have been lost his way on other sites because a couple people decided they didnt like something and got rid of it before it was found by someone who would actually use it. ([[User:THEM|THEM]] 23:34, 29 March 2009 (MDT))

:::::Well, you might want to know that we do hav e a delete log, so it is possible to see if anything was deleted. And it is entirely possible to restore deleted article, also [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] isn't a flaw murderer. I might also point you (again) the current policies of the wiki concerning flaws. Please assume good faith, Surgo gave his time to help the wiki, not to delete brilliant ideas for powergaming reasons.--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 23:38, 29 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::That didn't answer my question. I asked what constitutes as an active argument. And not everybody has the time to comb through the delete log in search of salvageable material. ([[User:THEM|THEM]] 23:43, 29 March 2009 (MDT))

:::::::I'd say if something hasn't been touched in a week, it's no longer an active argument. A week is a lot of time. Obviously, that's in addition to the normal two-week waiting period that a candidate for deletion gets. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 23:47, 29 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::::Then my vote stands, my laptop goes out of commission for over a month on a regular basis, and I know it isn't the worst out there. When friends let me borrow a computer I don't have the time to go hunting through a pile of deleted drivel to find the flaw I wanted to use for a character that's only half-finished. ([[User:THEM|THEM]] 23:53, 29 March 2009 (MDT))

:::::::::I still say I don't quite understand your vote. If you have a problem with the policy for deletion, of which I would ''merely be implementing'' as an administrator, why don't you argue about the policy in the appropriate place ([[Category Talk:Candidates for Deletion]]) instead of my request for adminship vote page?

::::::::::Partly because you are one of the few people who would actually be doing the deleting. Utterly lousy ideas can still be workable with a creative group, or might even inspire a better idea if seen by someone with a good imagination. But also because you disapprove of anything that doesn't work with your particular playing style. Call us rude, but the general consensus from my entire gaming group (about 40 people, 25 if you don't count the temporary players) is that you are inflexible, short-sighted, unimaginative, narrow-minded, and an all around threat to theis entire site. ([[User:THEM|THEM]] 00:20, 30 March 2009 (MDT))

:::::::::::Please assume good faith, [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] simply helped the wiki. He pointed the non UA-conform flaws and put the template for deletion on them. Many of theses flaws were fixed soon afterward. I am sure [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] prefer seeing flaws being playable than having them deleted, since the template for deletion is not final. Your comment is hostile, please apologize, this discussion have no place for insult. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 00:31, 30 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::::::::This is a conversation I just had over an IM with the dungeon master of most of my games
:::::::::::→ DM: I hope EVERYONE is against him being an admin
:::::::::::→ Whatever_Desu: sadly, its 2 vs 1
:::::::::::→ Whatever_Desu: Surgo and Lord Dhazriel vs THEM
:::::::::::→ DM: wtf
:::::::::::→ Whatever_Desu: I would weigh in, but I am a lazy bastered
:::::::::::→ Whatever_Desu: >>
:::::::::::→ DM: dude, if he gets it hsi way, he'll fuck up the ENTIRE site!
:::::::::::→ DM: it'll be completely useless
:::::::::::→ Whatever_Desu: yup
:::::::::::→ Whatever_Desu: looks like it
:::::::::::→ DM: well, then fuck that. the moment he screws the site up, then it'll be a good thing we'll have all the useful things
:::::::::::→ Whatever_Desu: i'll miss being able to find random funny stuff.....
:::::::::::→ DM: yeah...
:::::::::::→ Whatever_Desu: like te unbalened but awesomly funny weapons
:::::::::::→ DM: same here
:::::::::::→ Whatever_Desu: ...
:::::::::::→ DM: ..
:::::::::::→ DM: what
:::::::::::→ Whatever_Desu: maybe i should log in and post the conversation we just had
:::::::::::→ Whatever_Desu: XD
:::::::::::→ DM: DO IT
:::::::::::→ Whatever_Desu: aye-aye mon capitan ([[User:Whatever desu|Desu]] 00:38, 30 March 2009 (MDT))

::::::::::::While you could use a spell-checker Desu, thank you for backing me up. And I only give my trust to those who earn it in my eyes and in the eyes of my friends Dhazriel.([[User:THEM|THEM]] 00:40, 30 March 2009 (MDT))

:::::::::::::I was about to format that by meh, I am too lazy to do it. I know Surgo well, I know he only want good things for this site. So far he followed the policies of the wiki, [[:Category:April Fools]] here you can find funny stuff. No need to have a loads of unusable flaws. By supporting Surgo I took my position on the debate. And trust me, I only want good for the wiki. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 00:50, 30 March 2009 (MDT)

{{Discussion Indentation Revert}}

:You may trust Surgo Dhazriel, but neither me nor my friends do. Seeing as we don't trust you either, your endorsement of him means little to me. What I think Desu is trying to say is that those "useless flaws" are some of the things he'll miss. Please correct me if I am misrepresenting you Desu. ([[User:THEM|THEM]] 01:00, 30 March 2009 (MDT))

::I will miss them as well. To me, and Desu, there are no such thing as "useless flaws". They are merely for the fun of it, to make the character more interesting. They are "Character Flaws" simply that. They are meant for in game roleplaying. If you're going to get rid of one, why not all of them? Who's to say what flaws are better then others? I want them to be left alone, and I'm sure many others do as well. ([[User:TheDM|TheDM]] 01:07, 30 March 2009 (MDT))

:::Last warning, please assume good faith. First: You don't trust, ok it your choice. I have little care for you and your friend either, I do care about Surgo's adminship however. Otherwise I wouldn't argue (I am not even arguing). I am going to ask one more, and one last time. Etiquette a civility. Surgo would be an asset to this wiki, at least it what I believe.--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 01:10, 30 March 2009 (MDT)

::::This is ridiculous. Why even have it up as a "request" and allow "discussions" if you don't even take into consideration the opinion of others? ([[User:TheDM|TheDM]] 01:14, 30 March 2009 (MDT))

:::::I don't even know what to answer to this, I never said I didn't took in account opinions, I just said I don't care about their opinion about me. Please don't twist my words. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 01:16, 30 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::You say Surgo would be an asset to this wiki, I believe otherwise Dhazriel. And excuse me for being presumptuous, but it would appear Desu and TheDM agree with me. TheDM, I am presuming you are "DM" from Desu's conversation. Either way, I don't believe I could have said either of your last statments better myself. You have summed up what I stand for quite elegantly. I applaud you sir (or madam). ([[User:THEM|THEM]] 01:16, 30 March 2009 (MDT))

:::::::One other thing... What is this "You don't trust" business? Ok... So am I ''supposed'' to to trust someone I have never met, and from this point in time, have only seen them try to tamper/destroy things that I have come to like? And also, that whole "never said I didn't took in account opinions" it's VERY obvious that you don't, AND that you don't care. Also, I do not twist words, I state them as they are said to me.
:::::::And one last thing, yes THEM, you are correct. And although Desu got a chuckle out of it, or how he put it "nyuk nyuk nyuk", I am a Sir.([[User:TheDM|TheDM]] 01:35, 30 March 2009 (MDT))

::::::::Please assume good faith, if anyone took my words the wrong, I apologies for the confusion. But otherwise I have done nothing wrong. If it didn't cared about your opinion I would clearly state. I don't acre if you don't trust me, but I do take in account your opinion over [[User:Surgo|Surgo]]'s adminship. I am saddened by the fact I am diabolized right now, also, no you don't have to trust any and everyone. But please assume good faith, it all I ask and maybe this discussion would have been much pleaser if everyone did, on this comment I gently withdraw myself from the debate. (I don't withdraw my support however, I shall simply stop replying). Have a good day and enjoy the articles, very sincerely --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 01:44, 30 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::::::Tsk. What is with all this "assume good faith"? I do not need to assume good faith, I have already been proven to not give faith by Surgo's actions. If I had no, then I would not be arguing this point. If you are going to debate, you should pay attention to the other side of the argument and not just your own. If you had, then you would understand where I come from, and why I hold to my side of the argument. This being especially stressed as I have stated exactly why I am arguing this. ([[User:TheDM|TheDM]] 01:49, 30 March 2009 (MDT))

::::::::::I've given up responding to individual comments but D&D Wiki follows Wikipedia policy where not otherwise stated, and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith this is the appropriate policy]. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 01:51, 30 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::::::::I still hold to what I believe. If I am in the wrong, then so be it. But I know what I've seen, and I have not seen anything good.
:::::::::::End of Line. ([[User:TheDM|TheDM]] 01:57, 30 March 2009 (MDT))

::::::::::::Good Faith only applies to those with no history, you're already actively trying to delete the flaws that don't agree with your style of play. Had you not, and I was the only opposition, I would gladly vote in favor of you in hopes you would be as helpful as you claim you'll be, but as things stand I don't believe in second chances for those who don't admit and correct their mistakes. If this isn't enough for you, I quote the article you linked me to. ''"This guideline does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of contrary evidence"'' ([[User:THEM|THEM]] 02:06, 30 March 2009 (MDT))

:::::::::::::I really can't stand to be slandered like this. I am not "actively trying to delete the flaws that don't agree with your style of play"; we, in fact, have a [[Talk:DnD Flaws#Official Flaw Policy|flaw policy]] that has been developed in the wake of these events; the flaws I tagged for deletion do not fall under that policy. I would appreciate, in the future, the avoidance of personal attacks in your logical deductions that attempt to show why I would make a bad administrator (this is called ''ad hominem'') and stick to solid, ''provable'' facts. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 02:19, 30 March 2009 (MDT)

{{Discussion Indentation Revert}}

:If you truly wish to improve the site, then edit the flaw so it fits the rule. Merely putting it up for deletion doesn't solve anything. Edit them. Don't delete the--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 03:10, 30 March 2009 (MDT)m. ([[User:TheDM|TheDM]] 02:24, 30 March 2009 (MDT))

::I know I said I sit out, but this is an exception. Please understand putting flaws to deletion doesn't make them automatically deleted. Many users salvage article and make the shiny, otherwise many doesn't get the attention and remain in a bad shape. Look as a sign of good faith, I adopt one flaw in the candidate for deletion and make it conform to UA. I invite everyone to do so.--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 02:27, 30 March 2009 (MDT)

:::[[Incompetent (DnD Flaw)]] I have mine, if everyone take 5 minutes we can make quality and original maaterial for the wiki. In all the time we wasted arguing we could have fixed every flaws. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 02:36, 30 March 2009 (MDT)

::::It's easy to say "Let's get rid it because it doesn't follow the rules" when you are the ones making those rules. I've read that page and even participated in the discussion. Were I a member of this site when you applied for adminship Dhazriel, I would've opposed you. If you don't want to see the flaws that don't follow your guidelines then simply [[:Category:UA-Style Flaw|go here]] and leave the rest of us be. This is a wiki, not alchemy. To gain something, you don't have to loose something of equal value. That kind of mindset leads to the downfall of sites such as these. ([[User:THEM|THEM]] 02:50, 30 March 2009 (MDT))

:::::I am sorry I have nothing more to say, many admins and the own actually agreed on this policy. I am sorry this discussion ended like this. You are free on not agreed with us, or not trusting someone, or even oppose my adminship. Your opinion is all yours. please enjoy this wiki, I hope you have interesting contribution to add :)--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 02:58, 30 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::I believe that we should have a role-playing suggestions section. This is where and flaws that do not fit the UA guidelines can be put this due to the fact that a flaw is a set rule (by UA) and anything that doesn't fit those guidelines technically isn't a flaw. (The 'Style of play' for most people is to follow the rules). Also, to 'TheDM' your comment about editing and not deleting pages cannot realistically be achieved, there are too many pages that haven't been made enough to make into a successful page and there has to be a point where you have to delete pages. --[[User:Sabre070|Sabre070]] 03:03, 30 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::::Look THEM, we should solve this peacefully. Go and take a sit in the tavern, I be happy to talk with you peacefully and solve the current situations. I am (mostly) alway in the tavern. So come when you want or can. Don't worry, I won't flame you, I just want a peaceful agreement.--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 03:10, 30 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::::Upon taking up Dhazriel on his offer to talk in the tavern, I have no objections to the non-UA flaws being moved to a new section (unedited). I simply didn't wish to see original material lost, even awful ideas have potential in them if seen by the right person. As long as solutions like this can occur to preserve everyone's work I withdraw my objection to Surgo's adminship. ([[User:THEM|THEM]] 03:36, 30 March 2009 (MDT))

:::::::::This entire argument could have been avoided if you had taken a look at [[Talk:DnD Flaws#Official Flaw Policy]] and discussed the removal and/or implantation of roleplaying flaws there. This is about [[User:Surgo|Surgo's]] adminship; not about whether or not it is okay to remove homebrew content which does not conform to the rules laid out by Wizards. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] is not necessarily behind the removal and/or implantation of roleplaying flaws (he is just willing to implement the decision as made by the community). You are part of the community. Instead of being against [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] since he wants to remove roleplaying flaws, you should just be against the removal of roleplaying flaws; and make your decision about [[User:Surgo|Surgo's]] adminship non-related. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 11:01, 30 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::::::I have spoken in the policy discussion, and probably will again at some point. My objection was to the policy being implemented by Surgo before a solution for the roleplaying flaws was found. With that solved, my objection is withdrawn. ([[User:THEM|THEM]] 19:32, 30 March 2009 (MDT))

'''Neutral'''

* '''Neutral:''' My only objections are to material lost. When matters can be settled with that occurring, I humbly take this neutral stance. ([[User:THEM|THEM]] 03:40, 30 March 2009 (MDT))

:I noticed that lots of content gets lost here so I put my content on [[Ideas for Content (DnD Other)|this page]] rather than delete it. --[[User:Sabre070|Sabre070]] 03:46, 30 March 2009 (MDT)
* '''Neutral:''' I do not endorse this, but I have no reason to oppose. --[[User:TK-Squared|TK-Squared]] 07:02, 30 March 2009 (MDT)
* '''Neutral:''' I take a neutral stance simply because I'm sure that whatever path is taken, it will be for the best. As long as surgo doesn't go trigger happy on that deletion. ([[User:ElementEvil|ElementEvil]] 21:59, 1 April 2009 (MDT))
* '''Neutral:''' I think he can do a good job, as he seems very dedicated to the job and I feel he will activtly benefit the wiki, in which he's willing to shift thru the crap we have on here and remove it. But I won't go out of my way to support a rules lawyer, either. So I shall take my place amoung the mighty ranks of Austria, Costa Rica, Finland, Ireland, Liechtenstein, Sweden, Switzerland and Turkmenistan. -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 07:25, 3 April 2009 (MDT)
[[Category:Admin Request]]

Talk:Hunted (3.5e Trait)

2009-03-12T20:50:01Z

Flession: /* Proposal for Deletion */

== Comments ==

Any comments or suggestions can go in here. [[User:Flession|Flession]] 05:12, 8 April 2007 (MDT)

== Proposal for Deletion ==

I disagree with the motive to delete this. Yes, it is effected by roleplaying, but this starts right off the bat with someone already being on top of the bat, hunted. Stuff like that happens over time in games, and having it isn't exactly a benefit to anyone. If a decent DM gets a player with this flaw, they can make his life hell.

If the flaw doesn't fit the campaign, and all the players are already hunted, well, it's simple: don't use it. -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 23:21, 9 March 2009 (MDT)

:It's not "effected by roleplaying", it's '''purely''' roleplaying. Flaws are supposed to be about mechanics; as quoted from the page that defines flaws: "A flaw must have a numeric effect on a character's specific capabilities. Flaws with primarily roleplaying or story effects have unpredictable effects on game balance." Not to mention that it's something '''every''' character is going to have anyway. You're a PC in a D&D campaign, of course you're going to be hated and hunted by powerful shit! That's not worth anything.
:To put another way, it's unworkable as a story effect. If you're making your player's life "'''hell'''", it's a really bad flaw because flaws are supposed to be inconvenient, not crippling. If, on the other hand, you make the flaw something that's mildly inconvenient, that's worth absolutely nothing because a D&D character and is thus already expected to be hunted by shit in an inconvenient manner. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 23:28, 9 March 2009 (MDT)

::So you're telling me that a additional burden of someone else pissed off at you wouldn't effect the game in any way, shape, or form? Especially right at the start of the game? Also, I've had few games of D&D where my party was specifically hunted around by groups. I can edit it so it does some sort of mechanical function, if I have to, but you can't tell me every single campaign you play in you're gonna be hunted. Such motives for every single game is, at best, predicatable and boring. You might benefit to try other game types. -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 23:40, 9 March 2009 (MDT)

:::You've just been kind enough to bring up yet another problem in the flaw: what the hell is supposed to happen when you permanently beat off whatever was hunting you? Or grow strong enough so that whatever was originally hunting you isn't a threat anymore? Or have the hunter-thing be weak compared to you in the first place (not all campaigns start at level 1)? Or really just in general neutralize the problem with the flaw in the first place? It's this laundry list of problems that's the reason that flaws aren't supposed to be based in story effects in the first place. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 00:33, 10 March 2009 (MDT)

::::Because your limited view on D&D prevents you from realizing how to use this flaw effectively, how about you look further down at the notes portion. I'll save you the trouble:
::::"Special: This flaw requires some time and effort from the player using it. The player will have to come up with a back story of what his/her PC has done to this group and why they want him/her. Specific details as to what this group is and what they are about can be worked out with the DM. Everything else (i.e. when, where, and how they strike) will be left up to the DM.
::::(...)As stated before, this flaw requires '''time and effort''' from both the player and the DM. If neither are willing to put the effort required for it, just don't take the flaw."
::::In other words, if this flaw does not mesh with the game that you are playing or it's too complicated to really implement, simply do not take/allow the flaw. This flaw does not work with games you seem to play (dungeon crawls, easily defined plots, railroad games, etc). I am not bashing such games, as I do enjoy them from time to time. What I am saying is that the DM should determine what will work for his game and what won't work for his game: not a rules lawyer.
::::Also, since I am not at work and able to actually give you a respectable response, your bringing up the rules of flaws on a wiki site that focuses the majority of its content on customization is quite...interesting. Yes, following some mechanical aspects of the game is important, but, to counter your rule of flaws, I wish for you to look at the very beginning of the Dungeon Masters Guide. It mentions about the DM having such creative control to determine what it is that they want to do and for the player to determine if he likes it. If he doesn't, he can mention it, or he can go play something else.
::::I suggest you read it a couple of times. -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 18:38, 10 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::And I suggest you reread my point, because it looks like you haven't read it...like, at all. Because that still doesn't answer any of the laundry list of questions I have, except for where you start after level 1. For convenience, I will paste them again: what the hell is supposed to happen when you permanently beat off whatever was hunting you? Or grow strong enough so that whatever was originally hunting you isn't a threat anymore? Or have the hunter-thing be weak compared to you in the first place (not all campaigns start at level 1)? Or really just in general neutralize the problem with the flaw in the first place? Could you please just answer these questions, and stop throwing red herrings at me. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 18:42, 10 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::You've missed the answers between the lines of text, so I will make it more readable for you:
::::::"What the hell is supposed to happen when you permanently beat off whatever was hunting you?" A good DM wouldn't allow such a thing to happen. If a DM can't plan for such a possibility or come up with something else, he shouldn't allow this flaw So they defeat one branch of something..wow, another one pops up! And they're even more pissed off that you tried something. It really depends on the campaign and these are the questions and decisions a DM should ask and make. A creative DM can make this flaw great.
::::::"Or grow strong enough so that whatever was originally hunting you isn't a threat anymore?" A good DM wouldn't allow such a thing to happen. If a DM can't plan for such a possibility or come up with something else, he shouldn't allow this flaw.
::::::"Or have the hunter-thing be weak compared to you in the first place (not all campaigns start at level 1)?" Same question, same answer.
::::::"Or really just in general neutralize the problem with the flaw in the first place?" Guess what the answer is?
::::::"Could you please just answer these questions, and stop throwing red herrings at me." I hope that was clear enough. --[[User:Flession|Flession]] 19:06, 10 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::::How are those answers to anything? To give an example: if you're starting the game at level 1 and you're being hunted by the Kingdom of Eternal Light, whose most badass member happens to be a bit higher than King Arthur level and is like level 8 or 9, and then you reach the point in the game where you're level 11, then that's not even a threat anymore and you can pretty much stop caring about your hunted status. And if that mandates the intervention of something even more powerful, then that doesn't even make sense and totally kills the game's verisimilitude because if whatever you did was severe enough to mandate that kind of attention they would have sent it at you in the first place, when you were level 1, and just took care of you right off the bat (something which makes the flaw unplayable). It's these kind of problems that don't have answers without ruining a world's believability. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 19:10, 10 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::::Oh god almighty, I think everyone made their points. Still I tend to side with Surgo, if the player want to be hunted, then let him be. But why giving him a feat, it like giving a mechanical bonus for a storyline effect. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 19:22, 10 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::::::An NPC in any game can level as the players do, thus not making for a weaker NPC as the player progresses in skill (he's adventuring just like the players do). --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:19, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::::::I do apologize about the delay, but RL and all. Anyways, within your scenario, say the PC's do get end up finishing him off, running the kingdom into ruin and finally ending the life of the King..well, the King isn't very happy about that. While the kingdom is being ransacked, he makes a deal with a devil to continue the hunt, damning his soul for all eternity, but ensuring that he will have company in his torment. I read that situation and came up with it, seriously, within 2 minutes. That's because I'm a good DM. A newbie DM may get thrown asunder (although I feel a newbie DM should probably stick to premade campaigns and not allow custom content right away IMHO.) Anyways, everyone else has thrown in good arguments and I'll try to read them all, but I just wanted to throw it out..mostly out of ego.and mostly because it's a really good idea ^_^-- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 14:50, 12 March 2009 (MDT)

==Save the Article==

Okay, now, I just learned about how flaws work yesterday. After reading and rereading [[UA:Character Flaws]], and reading this article several times (as well as the discussion here)... I still can't see how this is actually a flaw. A flaw is supposed to be like an un-feat that prevents the character from doing something well. This doesn't. A flaw is also supposed to be mechanically measurable. Again, not so much. Now, while it doesn't say it outright, a flaw is sorta like failing in one aspect of your physical being or mental capacities and making up for it in other places via a feat. I still don't understand how having a character be pursued by an unstoppable, unsatisfying force somehow grants them a feat.

Now, of course I like the idea of having a character who gets hunted down by some other force or such (oddly enough, I'm just about to work such a thing out for a player in a game I DM, which is happening naturally over the course of the game). He gets no bonus feat for something with no penalty of course, and will likely even earn bonus experience for the thing, so really, its less of a flaw and more of a boon...anyways, I'm getting off point. I'd like to see the article salvaged/saved. But as is, its not a flaw, not by a long shot.

Since a flaw has gotta have some actual effect on the character's abilities to account for the bonus feat it grants, what about adding some kind of distrust of strangers, like penalties to sense motive and diplomacy or whatever...perhaps a bad reputation, as if he were a criminal (justly or unjustly accused)... wait, that doesn't affect his abilities. Dang, this is hard. Anyways, I'm all for saving the article, but it needs an overhaul if it is to remain an actual Flaw and not some other kind of article.

Also, Flession, if you'd like, you can always stop by the [[Special:TheTavern|The Tavern]] for some live conversation. --[[User:Ganteka|Ganteka]] 19:42, 10 March 2009 (MDT)

:Oh, one more thing, forgot to ask, has this ever been playtested? --[[User:Ganteka|Ganteka]] 19:51, 10 March 2009 (MDT)

::I am playtesting it, starting from first level. If a DM wants to run with it, thats great, if a DM doesnt want to run with it, then you cant have it. My character has resulted to having to be sneaky and not revealing his/her identity. The flaw affects how you can play the game, not in the form of strictly numerical penalties, but in the form of restricting the actions you can get away with without fear of reprisal. The spirit of a flaw is to force an aspect onto the character by use of a penalty, significant enough that it exceeds a feat. Played right this does indeed meet that, though multiple means. For instance a character with this really cant ever come out and claim responsibility for an act, and thus misses out on some or all of the reward, they cant take the downtimes casters normally use to create spells or copy spells into their spellbooks without taking steps to ensure their safety, and there is a larger implication of this flaw than simple "Me hunt you down and club you until one of us is dead"
::While this kind of situation can arise naturally in a campaign, others can also be duplicated through the application of curses or similiar objects bound to a character, so I consider that argument to be a non starter. Likewise the argument that a flaw isnt supposed to make a players life a living hell? Well, Murkey eyed, one of the UA feats, can be turned into a living hell for whoever took it simply by having everything completely or partially concealed. Slow? Send an army of Rampaging Feral Half Ogre Barbarians after them (For a cool 60ft speed), or dissallow magical and equestrian travel.
::In short, if a DM wants to run with it, its fair enough. Its been fun to play with and it hasnt upset the balance of the game at all so far. I dont see how simply deleting it serves any purpose however. --[[User:Spickle|Spickle]] 22:14, 10 March 2009 (MDT)

:::So what are you guys planning on doing when you outgrow (in power level) the guys that are hunting you in the first place? [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 22:33, 10 March 2009 (MDT)

::::That is not likely to happen until epic level. The group cited as being the aggressors are a group of powerful Arcane casters. The game is kept possible, and not overwhelmingly nasty, by use of subtle machinations and intermediaries in the earlier levels, while personal appearances seem to be just on the horizon. --[[User:Spickle|Spickle]] 05:22, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::If they are epic level, why don't they just teleport in on you, kill or capture you, and leave? It's seriously hard to believe that you have epic-level guys wanting you and you're still alive as a level 1 character. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 08:49, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::An NPC in any game can level as the players do, thus not making for a weaker NPC as the player progresses in skill (he's adventuring just like the players do). --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:32, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::Well, I only have one statement to add to this discussion. As the person who is playtesting this flaw above stated:
:::''The spirit of a flaw is to force an aspect onto the character by use of a penalty, significant enough that it exceeds a feat. Played right this does indeed meet that, though multiple means.''
:::The only problem with that, takes the form of three simple words: "If played right". Now then, this flaw could possibly be amazing for the game if the DM was J.K. Rowling (first famous author to come to my mind), but what if the DM is brand new? what if the DM is extremely nice? what if the DM is (forgive me) stupid? These people probably ''believe'' that they could handle the flaw, and make it interesting, but then they play the game, and Joe, the level 2 Kobold Commoner turns out to be the one hunting them (it's interesting isn't it?). My point is, you ''have'' to play it right in order to get the correct benifit, if it's played wrong, then the character gets a free feat. There's too much "if" tied in with the flaw for it to be playable. → [[User:Rithaniel|Rith]] [[User talk:Rithaniel|(talk)]] 23:11, 10 March 2009 (MDT)

::::The DM in question is new. It doesnt require any special super storytelling abilities, only the ability to realistically portray a villainous or powerful element, which is something of a prerequisite for being a DM in the first place. Admittedly, a poor DM can be messed with and allow this to be abused, but as i have said, the DM has the final say and can Veto it if he/she thinks it is innappropriate. Other flaws can also be vetoed when they have negligable effects on the characters in question. For example, the flaw, Murky Eyed, (Presented on d20srd) is essentially nothing to a character with tremorsense, likewise, the flaw slow has no effect whatsoever on a player with flight of good or higher (And arguably any form of flight), and there are a number of races that grant this, though with level adjustments. Similarly the Pathetic flaw, when applied to ones dump stat, has negligable effect on a persons play except in the rare case of ability score debuffs, such as the Psions Ego Whip, combined with decent saves and the flaw is essentially a free feat for negligable outcome. With the right race you have the same effect. As for the alleged kobold example above, the text of the flaw on the page reads, rather clearly i should point out:
::::"'''''Effect''': You've upset a major power in your area/city/kingdom/plane and they are after blood: your blood''"
::::Emphasis on the term "major". I'll admit it takes a moderate to good DM to pull this off well, but just because it requires some form of skill on the part of both people involved doesnt mean it should be deleted. --[[User:Spickle|Spickle]] 05:22, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::Ok, i have signed up and set all my comments to my name. Not all of what was said above is directed to you Rith, just general comments regarding nullifying the effects of flaws. --[[User:Spickle|Spickle]] 05:38, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::{{quote|The group cited as being the aggressors are a group of powerful Arcane casters|orig=That Guy Defending This}}
::::::So... They teleport in after scrying on you, kill you or capture you with relative ease? The problem here is not with your roleplaiz or "thingz dat r interstin", but they're with the fact a non-mechanical thing gives you a mechanical thing. It's like gaining a money for saying you're a muffin. Then the problem is also enhanced by the fact, y'know, the entire thing hinges on a second party who must have a partial decision (The DM, I'm sure you're going to go off and whine about how the DM IS ALWAYS THAR, but in theory; the DM is impartial). If the people chasing you are "powerful arcane casters", why don't they just use their powerful arcane magic to come and get you easily? Especially if you won't beat them till epic. It's like it's just a niggling little thought there saying "hey, someone's hunting you, not going to come for you though, too busy fapping". So, ultimately; what's the point?
::::::Murky-Eyed; right, because everyone has Tremorsense. And nothing can fly. And nothing with a miss chance is incorporeal either. Pathetic; because having an even lower dump stat never hurt anyone. I mean, Charisma NEVER comes up ever, so might as well dump that, right? The problem, iterated again for your benefit, of your flaw is that it is not a mechanical penalty. It relies on railroads and fiats. That is now how a flaw works. --[[User:TK-Squared|TK-Squared]] 05:47, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::::Wow, you are being pretty seriously obnoxious there. Trying to be intimidating? No, don't answer that. I don't care for the posturing of the intellectually vacant.
:::::::You seem to be misunderstanding the scale and scope of a flaw as it applies to a living game setting. Deliberately, methinks, given your hostility and rather blunt oversimplification. Each character has their own plots and agendas and, as they are a rather evil conglomerate, they have their own internal squabbles.
:::::::The DM and I worked this out, it goes beyond simply a concerted dedicated effort to hunt down and kill a single individual. Power struggles between the individuals at the top demand that they personally expend minimal magical resources on scrying out the target (A simple "If i use energy amount X on target Y, then i cannot use it on my rivals and they will have a slight advantage over me" thing), the campaign is set a decade after the event, a good portion of the early part of this involved my character being beyond the reach of scrying (There are ways, even in the SRD to do this). You are not considering this in the context of a living world. Until a character actually becomes powerful enough to warrant severe action, or is on the way to some other important thing of the NPC's, it is unlikely to waste its energy doing so personally and will instead operate through minions.
:::::::Lets just deal with your comment on nothing can fly, using decent speeds, of course. Raptorans from Savage Species can fly at 40' with good manouverability, Dragonkin from teh Draconicon can fly 40' with Good manouverability, which allows hovering so they need never land at all, shame about the 7 HD though. Nycter are a 3hd creature in MM3 that can fly, Gloamings (Underdark page 12) can fly, and have no racial HD at all, only a +2 LA. Windrazor from MM4 can fly as well, though it has 2HD and a +2 LA, the slow feat seems built for the Pixie, which has a 60 foot fly speed with good manouverability, and a +4 LA. There are other races out there i have not even bothered to mention, but clearly your understanding of the nature of flying player characters is false. Indeed, the spell Overland Flight can be used to overcome the feat more or less indefinately, though it only has average manouverability.
:::::::The rest of it i can see no attempt at you making a point, only you parading your obnoxiousness for all to see. Please refrain from doing so. Answer points raised or remain quiet, and leave your childishness at the door.
:::::::All flaws can be duplicated in game with persistent magical effects or entirely nullified by sufficent application of cheese in the form of prestige classes, races, and templates.--[[User:Spickle|Spickle]] 07:59, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::::Sarcasm, guys. It's serious business. You're being pretty moronic there. Are you retarded? No, don't answer that. I don't care for the posturing of the intellectually vacant. See what I did there, that was parody. Now, let me educate you on sarcasm. The point of saying "Because nothing can fly" was used in mocking of your irrelevant idea of tremorsense. Maybe you didn't get this, because you're too busy trying to rub your own ego with your silly obnoxious prancing.
::::::::So, these POWERFUL ARCANE MAGES can't spare a level 4 spell and 1 hour? Man, those resources must be stretched. Of course, y'know, every level 1 character has access to resources like Mindblank. Obviously! How silly of me to assume not. See that, that was sarcasm again. [http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/nintendogirl14/johnconnor.jpg Are we learning yet?] Clearly you are new to the interwebnets and, therefore, lack the fine understanding of interpretation. This is hard concept to grasp, but soon, when you mature into a respectable interweb citizen, you shall understand this subtle art.
::::::::You also forgot Dragonborn from Races of Dragon, they're pretty decent for flight. Or a Half-Dragon template on a large creature. When you're trying to look cool or something next time, you can use them. No need to thank me.
::::::::A flaw is taken at level 1, it's pretty hard to negate those penalties then. But, of course, your simple mind wanders to "but if i use broken thing x, thing y is negated!". Yes. This is why it's broken. Or why it's called Cheese.
::::::::You seem to be misunderstanding everyone's point against this flaw, one thinks it's because you're incapable of seeing something from someone else's valid viewpoint and you're so hardheaded, you refuse to even understand their points, but instead label them as obnoxious or being "intelectually vacant" (which I found highly amusing, just so you know, you pompous little thing). In a way, it's kind of cute, to see you try and "prove" yourself, or something, to being superior or going around claiming people are obnoxious, while trying to blow on your thumb, silly silly hypocrit.
::::::::Now, unless you want to continue some really lame attempts to insult me; maybe you can direct your attention to the points that were made. I know, it's hard, but don't worry; soon you'll be a big boy. The point still stands that this flaw has no mechanical drawbacks and, for that lack, you gain a mechanical boost. It's like gaining something for nothing; nothing but something that could've been done by simply roleplaying a character well. You don't need this flaw to be hunted; it's just taken so you can get a feat out of it. None of the things described making it "fun" for a DM are things that he couldn't do anyway. But, if the hunter is making no attempts to hunt you other than "Oh, twiddly my fingers until he turns up somewhere", especially at level 1, it's going to be just "+1 Feat!".
::::::::Ultimately; this isn't a flaw, it's a roleplaying aspect of a game that gives you a bonus for no real reason. --[[User:TK-Squared|TK-Squared]] 09:05, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::::::Could you turn down the insults, please, TK? Please don't turn this into another [[Discussion:Most Unbalanced Class|''most unbalanced class'']] argument... --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:21, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::::::I've Removed template:delete, as this article is well written (again). If you don't like it as a [whatever], move it to 4e other. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:26, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::::::::You apparently don't even understand what flaws are, the purpose of my marking half of them on the wiki for deletion, or even what this article is, so please do not touch this article or the template again. '''It is not even 4e!''' [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 09:27, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::::::::Well Spickle, I'd like to offer an official welcome to the wiki. [By the way, just so you know, TK can be rather [I think you can put your own word here [no offense intended to TK]]] I don't have any time to type up any kind of considerable contribution to this discussion right now, and am really just typing this to avoid you from getting scared away by Mr. Squared. Though I'll type up a proper response to your statements above later. → [[User:Rithaniel|Rith]] [[User talk:Rithaniel|(talk)]] 09:33, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

{{Discussion Indentation Revert}}

:[[User:Spickle|Spickle]] and [[User:TK-Squared|TK-Squared]] please remember to stay civil. Also please keep in mind that not everyone thinks like you, just like you do not think like everyone else. Because you were being rude and inconsiderate to each other, this a warning. Please try to be nice. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 13:28, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

== My mini Edit War With Sam Kay ==

If the flaw gets balanced, the delete template can be removed. Right now, please stop touching it because it is clear that you do not understand flaws or their balancing. Whether or not it is well-written has no bearing on balance. You have yet to even give a balance argument on this page. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 09:29, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:Template delete should not be added until you've tried to fix it. I'm not getting involved in this argument, I'm just saying that before you delete stuff because of various reasons, please try to fix them; it's not just a random thing someone's put here, it has good quality text, regardless of balance. Also, I know what a flaw is, I just removed the template because I think it should be fixed rather than deleted. Also, that 4e thing was a typo. Sorry. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:39, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::The entire point is that it's unfixable because it goes against the most absolute basic rules for flaws as laid out in Unearthed Arcana. I haven't tried to fix it because the entire concept is unfixable. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 09:40, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

== After Skimming the Discussions ==

I only skimmed the discussions, but I say don't delete. Instead split the flaws up into "3.5e UA-Style Flaws" and "3.5e User-Defined Flaws." (Oddly enough, the first set of flaws posted on the wiki used a house-rule different from what's in the UA.) This way each flaw that doesn't fit the UA specs, can have its own rules defined within the flaw itself. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]] | [[User talk:Admin|admin talk]]) 09:56, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:A house rule that has since been acknowledged to have been a mistake and has been removed, and things that used that concept have all been moved to the Traits section of the wiki. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 12:28, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:I'm not going to get into an edit war over the deletion template. Here are the facts:
:*This flaw is workable, though only if the DM takes proper advantage of it
:*This flaw is weak in comparison to most, and can possibly be abused by players to get another trait
:*This article is well written
:So, here is what this article needs: '''playtesting'''. Not deletion. Maybe we should come up with a playtesting template in lieu of deletion. However, deletion is entirely improper. If it were to be reworked, say if I made a '''Hunted, Hooper Variant (DnD Flaw)''' I'd change what was gained to something else entirely instead of a feat. Maybe to something that eases the person's ability to stay hidden from said group - small bonus to hide/move silently, or the effectiveness of having one of the lower level stealthy feats. Or, better yet, not give any bonus - leave that to the counterbalancing trait. [[User:Hooper|''' Hooper ''']][[User talk:Hooper|  talk  ]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|  contribs  ]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|  email  ]] 10:52, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::Here are more facts that you don't mention but are every bit as important:
::* Unearthed Arcana defines '''very''' clearly and '''very''' specifically what flaws should do.
::* Unearthed Arcana says '''very''' clearly that "A flaw must have a numeric effect on a character's specific capabilities. Flaws with primarily roleplaying or story effects have unpredictable effects on game balance."
::* This flaw is purely a story effect and roleplaying, and has no numerical effect.
::* In addition to the above, the flaw makes no sense in the context of the Dungeons & Dragons world. After a certain point, it becomes irrelevant. In most cases, before a certain point, you have to wonder how the character even survives (see the above discussion) if the world is to even be believable.
::As long as this article does not do what a flaw is supposed to do, it should not be on the wiki. Deletion is entirely proper here. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 12:27, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::I'd like to see where you are getting your quote from UA at, as I'm reading it now and do not see what you are claiming to quote.  [[User:Hooper|''' Hooper ''']][[User talk:Hooper|  talk  ]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|  contribs  ]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|  email  ]] 12:38, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::[http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingcharacters/characterflaws.htm]. It's, like, right there. Under Metagame Analysis: Creating Flaws. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 12:39, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::Ah, in a sidebar. That helps. <s>However, once again, this does not say '''no''' to roleplaying-only flaws, only discourages them as they may imbalance. So I still see this as a playtesting issue.</s> ''(Edit:Scratch this, rereading brings it across properly. Under this light, that is true. However the article can still be easily saved. Watch.)'' I'd personally completely remove the +1 feat though. Take a flaw - take a trait. No need for other bonuses.  [[User:Hooper|''' Hooper ''']][[User talk:Hooper|  talk  ]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|  contribs  ]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|  email  ]] 12:43, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::<s>What the hell? How does the word '''must''' not say no to roleplaying flaws? It doesn't get any more crystal clear than that.</s> (edit: nevermind that, since the above post was edited). If you want to make it into a trait, go ahead and the deletion template can be removed. But a flaw very specifically gives one bonus feat -- if it's not doing that, it isn't a flaw. It's a trait. And it should not be in the flaw namespace. Go ahead and move it and make it actually workable as a trait. I'm not stopping you. In fact, I'll be happy. The sooner this is out of the Flaws section the better. It still needs changes to be a trait, but they aren't so severe. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 12:46, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::Users are allowed to define their own sub-mechanics for d20. In fact, before any UA material showed up on this wiki, someone posted their own variant rules for [[Character Flaws (DnD Variant Rule)|character flaws]]. This isn't anything WotC hadn't been doing all throughout 3(.5)e. They started with spells, added psionic powers, added epic spells, added soulmelds, added invocations, added skill tricks, added substitution levels, and so on and so on. This is in addition to the slew of variant rules in the UA. Clearly, this is not a flaw as specified by the UA, but that alone is not enough to warrant deletion. It can be a flaw in some other rule system or a stand-alone variant rule. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]] | [[User talk:Admin|admin talk]]) 12:50, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::And that alone isn't the only reason it's up for deletion. It's just one of several. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 12:52, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::What? Sledged is saying that just because this does not follow Wizards rules for flaws it shouldn't warrant deletion. Instead of being required to follow the UA flaw rules, it should be labeled as a "variant flaw" within the variant flaw rulesystem of "You gain something at the price of something else." And I agree. We now just need to make a variant flaw area. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 13:12, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::And yet none of those reasons are listed in the [[Template:Delete|delete template]]. Let me rephrase: Its failure to adhere to all the UA rules for flaws neither adds to nor takes away from the merit of it being deleted. It is grounds for it to be renamed, moved, tagged as non-UA flaw, made to conform to UA rules, etc... But of all the reasons for this flaw to be deleted, the one given in the delete template is one that has no business being there. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]] | [[User talk:Admin|admin talk]]) 13:06, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::Then I shall change the message on the delete template. In addition, ''there is no tag'' for non-UA flaws (nonsensical to me, seeing as how the rules for flaws are defined in UA). Perhaps one should be added. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:09, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::It's a "straw that broke the camel's back" thing. There are a lot of reasons that together add up into "this should be deleted". Unquantifiable effect, effect on all party members instead of yourself, not following UA guidelines, causes verisimilitude problems in the world (see discussion with Hooper below)...lots of straws. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:15, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

==Altering the flaw==
Here is my suggestion to make the flaw more playable:

*Reword the effect part as follows:

'''Effect:''' You've upset a major power in your area/city/kingdom/plane and they are after blood: your blood. Maybe, if you're lucky, they will spare your companions of your fate...maybe. Regardless, you will be hunted and brought to justice. Of course, one's brand of justice has always been a subjective term. Your pursuers have vastly spread the word of your demise around, and others are less likely to have dealings with you. As such, '''You take a -4 Penalty on all Bluff, Disguise, Diplomacy, and Gather Information checks.'''

Comments/Suggestions/Thoughts?  [[User:Hooper|''' Hooper ''']][[User talk:Hooper|  talk  ]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|  contribs  ]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|  email  ]] 12:48, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::I removed the ''"remove bonus feat"'' suggestion. It was coming across to me as if this flaw gave a second additional feat in addition to the one you get just for taking a flaw. Now I see what it is saying - just the basics. Nevermind that then.  [[User:Hooper|''' Hooper ''']][[User talk:Hooper|  talk  ]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|  contribs  ]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|  email  ]] 12:50, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::Then it's not a flaw anymore, because flaws give bonus feats. It's a trait but unlike other traits, it doesn't actually do anything. It needs to have some ''minor'' bonus to actually be useful at all. This idea is sorta similar to the character backgrounds in [[Races of War (DnD Other)]], which itself is similar to traits. Move it to the trait section of the wiki, give it some minor bonus. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 12:52, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::I believe your first reply is invalidated by my edited add-on to the suggestion. You may wish to re-read the proposal.  [[User:Hooper|''' Hooper ''']][[User talk:Hooper|  talk  ]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|  contribs  ]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|  email  ]] 12:56, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::Your proposal doesn't make sense. Why would you take a -4 penalty on those checks if you were being hunted by the Kingdom of Eternal Light on the Prime Material Plane and then plane shifted to Carceri where nobody has even heard of or cares about the Kingdom of Eternal Light? [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 12:58, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::The answer to that goes back to the author's comments: that this flaw does in fact take some prep and thought and time from the DM. That is not a reason for deletion. Playtesting, maybe. Deletion, no.  [[User:Hooper|''' Hooper ''']][[User talk:Hooper|  talk  ]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|  contribs  ]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|  email  ]] 13:01, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::What playtesting is required here? If such a simple case as "I just move to Carceri where nobody cares" breaks the whole concept in two, there's something seriously wrong. In addition, I don't think people quite get the concept of what playtesting is. Playtesting involves math. It involves rigor. It tells you absolutely by the rigorous process known as mathematical analysis whether something is broken or not. There is no mathematical analysis that can be applied to this flaw.[[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:03, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::Because "such a simple case" '''''doesn't''''' break the whole concept in two, as you put it. It just provides the DM with planar power-packing NPCs under the hire of the pursuer to track down the PC, leaving him constantly in a state of moving and paranoia, and with the added minuses and hits to his skills that are used alot when meeting new people, it really may work out. As such, playtesting is appropriate.  [[User:Hooper|''' Hooper ''']][[User talk:Hooper|  talk  ]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|  contribs  ]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|  email  ]] 13:06, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::::If the NPCs are packing planar power and are capable of tracking you across things like planes, why didn't they just teleport to you and kill you when you first committed the crime and were on the run? Verisimilitude problems abound with this flaw. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:07, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::::Presumably, the PC was a very low level (since this is at character creation) when the crime was committed. Therefor, the NPCs would not overkill and just send out an aggressor to handle the problem. As the PC grew in level and constantly met their challenge, the NPCs would get more and more frustrated, sending higher and higher power until maybe even coming themselves. Once again, this discussion we're having right now is all playtesting - not deletion.  [[User:Hooper|''' Hooper ''']][[User talk:Hooper|  talk  ]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|  contribs  ]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|  email  ]] 13:10, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::::::So there are two cases: 1, what the PC did was important enough to warrant the use of resources on the power level to track across multiple planes. 2, what the PC did was '''not''' important enough for that. In the case of 1, why would the resources '''not''' be used immediately? That makes absolutely no sense. In the case of 2, why would you then expend the resources to track across multiple planes if what the PC did was not important enough to expend those resources? That also makes no sense. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:13, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::::::These are all good, warranted questions Surgo, with many possible answers or no answer - which is exactly why playtesting would be great for this.  [[User:Hooper|''' Hooper ''']][[User talk:Hooper|  talk  ]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|  contribs  ]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|  email  ]] 13:14, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::::::::You can't playtest something that's unquantifiable. Playtesting is the subjecting of a rule to less-than-completely-rigorous mathematical analysis. You can't subject something unquantifiable to mathematical analysis. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:17, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::::::::Their are so many options for this it can never be balanced. But it can be very interesting. For example it could be a childhood rival who has always hated the PC. As soon as the PC left home he left home too, always following him, adventuring while following. Hunting him. When the PC gains a level, he gains a level. The reason it can never be balanced is because it is always up to the DM, and just the DM. He could make this childhood rival meet them in a dungeon, right before a nasty creature. As they injure each other the NPC flees (to fight again another day). Then the PC's have to go face the nasty creature. That is not balanced. Although what happens when the inevitable will happen? The PC defeats this problem? Will he lose the feat? The issue with this is it can never be balanced, but it does add an unique flavor to the game. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 13:23, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

== Summation of Arguments and Possible Solutions ==

Okay, since everything has gotten long, I'll try to sum up the arguments against this as a flaw:
* Unquantifiable effect.
* Effect on all party members instead of yourself.
* Not following UA guidelines that define what flaws actually are...like, at all.
* Causes verisimilitude problems in the world (see [[#Altering the flaw|discussion with Hooper]]).

How can this be fixed? Well, let's recognize that it's a character background. That makes it a perfect choice for being done as either a [[UA:Character Traits|Trait]] or a [[Races of War (DnD Other)/Warriors with Style#Character Background|Character Background]]. But not a flaw, which is very specific in what it should accomplish. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:20, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:Hooper's reply
:*Do not agree that point one exists
:*Could be a valid bad thing, needs to be playtested or reworded to more rigorously effect the PC and not his party.
:*See above discussion for Green Dragon's idea, as well as a variant above with my thoughts on how to make it conform
:*Do not agree that point four exists.
:Next person's reply?  [[User:Hooper|''' Hooper ''']][[User talk:Hooper|  talk  ]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|  contribs  ]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|  email  ]] 13:24, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::You can't just say that "this effect is quantifiable", you have to '''actually quantify it'''. If it can't be quantified...it is obviously unquantifiable. And if it is not quantifiable, it cannot be playtested. So please quantify the effect it if you want to make the point. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:26, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::*It does have an unquantifiable effect. Too many variables exist to ever make it so it does not have a different effect every game, therefore unquantifiable.
:::*I agree - that's a problem.
:::*Just make a variant flaw area. This is irrelevant.
:::*This is just a result of the unquantifiable effect.
:::So the problems stand:
:::#Unquantifiable effect.
:::#Has an effect on the entire party.
:::Does that warrant deletion, is the question, or can it be salvaged? --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 13:35, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::I believe it can be salvaged, but '''not''' as a flaw but instead a [[UA:Character Traits|Trait]] or a [[Races of War (DnD Other)/Warriors with Style#Character Background|Character Background]]. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:38, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::I think there is a possibility it can still work as a flaw. Take this for example (mind you this is not balanced and still only partially solves the first problem, and does not even touch the second):
:::::'''Effect:''' You've upset someone earlier in your life and they are now after blood: your blood. Maybe, if you're lucky, they will spare your companions of your fate... maybe. Regardless, you will be hunted until killed.
:::::A character of your ECL -1 is hunting you to your death. Maybe he is a childhood rival who was annoyed he could never beat you, maybe he is a madman who thinks you stole something of his, or maybe he is a wizard who can look into the future and knows for his sake he wants you dead. No matter their background — they want you dead. And that is all that matters.
:::::Each day that passes the DM rolls a d%. On a 1-5 your hunter will find you that day and confront you. Where and when they confront you is entirely up to the DM. If your hunter seems to have the loosing hand he will retreat to fight again another day. If you stay in the same area for two days it increases to a 1-10. Three days a 1-15. Four days 1-20, etc.
:::::''Note:'' If the hunter dies the DM must use his imagination. Maybe he gets resurrected. Maybe someone else starts hunting you because you killed their friend, in any case someone is still hunting you and you better run.
:::::'''Benefit:''' Bonus feat.
:::::Just to get some ideas rolling. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 15:01, 11 March 2009 (MDT)
::::::I was actually thinking something along those lines, Green Dragon, if I had to put in some dice mechanics. (And Might I say Holy Crap! I didn't expect this to escalate in such a manner! Great, though. It's a great flaw.) Also, to point out, I have play tested this flaw on numerous occasions. I used it for a long campaign and it kept the player on his toes. As to his "Kingdom of Eternal Light" argument, I can argue that..but I'll put it where he first begun. --[[User:Flession|Flession]] 14:40, 12 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::But in any case I feel this does need to become a trait to be made usable, since it really does not follow the UA flaw rules right now. It can be moved into a variant-flaw when or if that section is made. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 13:32, 12 March 2009 (MDT)

Talk:Hunted (3.5e Trait)

2009-03-12T20:40:19Z

Flession: /* Summation of Arguments and Possible Solutions */

== Comments ==

Any comments or suggestions can go in here. [[User:Flession|Flession]] 05:12, 8 April 2007 (MDT)

== Proposal for Deletion ==

I disagree with the motive to delete this. Yes, it is effected by roleplaying, but this starts right off the bat with someone already being on top of the bat, hunted. Stuff like that happens over time in games, and having it isn't exactly a benefit to anyone. If a decent DM gets a player with this flaw, they can make his life hell.

If the flaw doesn't fit the campaign, and all the players are already hunted, well, it's simple: don't use it. -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 23:21, 9 March 2009 (MDT)

:It's not "effected by roleplaying", it's '''purely''' roleplaying. Flaws are supposed to be about mechanics; as quoted from the page that defines flaws: "A flaw must have a numeric effect on a character's specific capabilities. Flaws with primarily roleplaying or story effects have unpredictable effects on game balance." Not to mention that it's something '''every''' character is going to have anyway. You're a PC in a D&D campaign, of course you're going to be hated and hunted by powerful shit! That's not worth anything.
:To put another way, it's unworkable as a story effect. If you're making your player's life "'''hell'''", it's a really bad flaw because flaws are supposed to be inconvenient, not crippling. If, on the other hand, you make the flaw something that's mildly inconvenient, that's worth absolutely nothing because a D&D character and is thus already expected to be hunted by shit in an inconvenient manner. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 23:28, 9 March 2009 (MDT)

::So you're telling me that a additional burden of someone else pissed off at you wouldn't effect the game in any way, shape, or form? Especially right at the start of the game? Also, I've had few games of D&D where my party was specifically hunted around by groups. I can edit it so it does some sort of mechanical function, if I have to, but you can't tell me every single campaign you play in you're gonna be hunted. Such motives for every single game is, at best, predicatable and boring. You might benefit to try other game types. -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 23:40, 9 March 2009 (MDT)

:::You've just been kind enough to bring up yet another problem in the flaw: what the hell is supposed to happen when you permanently beat off whatever was hunting you? Or grow strong enough so that whatever was originally hunting you isn't a threat anymore? Or have the hunter-thing be weak compared to you in the first place (not all campaigns start at level 1)? Or really just in general neutralize the problem with the flaw in the first place? It's this laundry list of problems that's the reason that flaws aren't supposed to be based in story effects in the first place. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 00:33, 10 March 2009 (MDT)

::::Because your limited view on D&D prevents you from realizing how to use this flaw effectively, how about you look further down at the notes portion. I'll save you the trouble:
::::"Special: This flaw requires some time and effort from the player using it. The player will have to come up with a back story of what his/her PC has done to this group and why they want him/her. Specific details as to what this group is and what they are about can be worked out with the DM. Everything else (i.e. when, where, and how they strike) will be left up to the DM.
::::(...)As stated before, this flaw requires '''time and effort''' from both the player and the DM. If neither are willing to put the effort required for it, just don't take the flaw."
::::In other words, if this flaw does not mesh with the game that you are playing or it's too complicated to really implement, simply do not take/allow the flaw. This flaw does not work with games you seem to play (dungeon crawls, easily defined plots, railroad games, etc). I am not bashing such games, as I do enjoy them from time to time. What I am saying is that the DM should determine what will work for his game and what won't work for his game: not a rules lawyer.
::::Also, since I am not at work and able to actually give you a respectable response, your bringing up the rules of flaws on a wiki site that focuses the majority of its content on customization is quite...interesting. Yes, following some mechanical aspects of the game is important, but, to counter your rule of flaws, I wish for you to look at the very beginning of the Dungeon Masters Guide. It mentions about the DM having such creative control to determine what it is that they want to do and for the player to determine if he likes it. If he doesn't, he can mention it, or he can go play something else.
::::I suggest you read it a couple of times. -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 18:38, 10 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::And I suggest you reread my point, because it looks like you haven't read it...like, at all. Because that still doesn't answer any of the laundry list of questions I have, except for where you start after level 1. For convenience, I will paste them again: what the hell is supposed to happen when you permanently beat off whatever was hunting you? Or grow strong enough so that whatever was originally hunting you isn't a threat anymore? Or have the hunter-thing be weak compared to you in the first place (not all campaigns start at level 1)? Or really just in general neutralize the problem with the flaw in the first place? Could you please just answer these questions, and stop throwing red herrings at me. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 18:42, 10 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::You've missed the answers between the lines of text, so I will make it more readable for you:
::::::"What the hell is supposed to happen when you permanently beat off whatever was hunting you?" A good DM wouldn't allow such a thing to happen. If a DM can't plan for such a possibility or come up with something else, he shouldn't allow this flaw So they defeat one branch of something..wow, another one pops up! And they're even more pissed off that you tried something. It really depends on the campaign and these are the questions and decisions a DM should ask and make. A creative DM can make this flaw great.
::::::"Or grow strong enough so that whatever was originally hunting you isn't a threat anymore?" A good DM wouldn't allow such a thing to happen. If a DM can't plan for such a possibility or come up with something else, he shouldn't allow this flaw.
::::::"Or have the hunter-thing be weak compared to you in the first place (not all campaigns start at level 1)?" Same question, same answer.
::::::"Or really just in general neutralize the problem with the flaw in the first place?" Guess what the answer is?
::::::"Could you please just answer these questions, and stop throwing red herrings at me." I hope that was clear enough. --[[User:Flession|Flession]] 19:06, 10 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::::How are those answers to anything? To give an example: if you're starting the game at level 1 and you're being hunted by the Kingdom of Eternal Light, whose most badass member happens to be a bit higher than King Arthur level and is like level 8 or 9, and then you reach the point in the game where you're level 11, then that's not even a threat anymore and you can pretty much stop caring about your hunted status. And if that mandates the intervention of something even more powerful, then that doesn't even make sense and totally kills the game's verisimilitude because if whatever you did was severe enough to mandate that kind of attention they would have sent it at you in the first place, when you were level 1, and just took care of you right off the bat (something which makes the flaw unplayable). It's these kind of problems that don't have answers without ruining a world's believability. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 19:10, 10 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::::Oh god almighty, I think everyone made their points. Still I tend to side with Surgo, if the player want to be hunted, then let him be. But why giving him a feat, it like giving a mechanical bonus for a storyline effect. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 19:22, 10 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::::::An NPC in any game can level as the players do, thus not making for a weaker NPC as the player progresses in skill (he's adventuring just like the players do). --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:19, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

==Save the Article==

Okay, now, I just learned about how flaws work yesterday. After reading and rereading [[UA:Character Flaws]], and reading this article several times (as well as the discussion here)... I still can't see how this is actually a flaw. A flaw is supposed to be like an un-feat that prevents the character from doing something well. This doesn't. A flaw is also supposed to be mechanically measurable. Again, not so much. Now, while it doesn't say it outright, a flaw is sorta like failing in one aspect of your physical being or mental capacities and making up for it in other places via a feat. I still don't understand how having a character be pursued by an unstoppable, unsatisfying force somehow grants them a feat.

Now, of course I like the idea of having a character who gets hunted down by some other force or such (oddly enough, I'm just about to work such a thing out for a player in a game I DM, which is happening naturally over the course of the game). He gets no bonus feat for something with no penalty of course, and will likely even earn bonus experience for the thing, so really, its less of a flaw and more of a boon...anyways, I'm getting off point. I'd like to see the article salvaged/saved. But as is, its not a flaw, not by a long shot.

Since a flaw has gotta have some actual effect on the character's abilities to account for the bonus feat it grants, what about adding some kind of distrust of strangers, like penalties to sense motive and diplomacy or whatever...perhaps a bad reputation, as if he were a criminal (justly or unjustly accused)... wait, that doesn't affect his abilities. Dang, this is hard. Anyways, I'm all for saving the article, but it needs an overhaul if it is to remain an actual Flaw and not some other kind of article.

Also, Flession, if you'd like, you can always stop by the [[Special:TheTavern|The Tavern]] for some live conversation. --[[User:Ganteka|Ganteka]] 19:42, 10 March 2009 (MDT)

:Oh, one more thing, forgot to ask, has this ever been playtested? --[[User:Ganteka|Ganteka]] 19:51, 10 March 2009 (MDT)

::I am playtesting it, starting from first level. If a DM wants to run with it, thats great, if a DM doesnt want to run with it, then you cant have it. My character has resulted to having to be sneaky and not revealing his/her identity. The flaw affects how you can play the game, not in the form of strictly numerical penalties, but in the form of restricting the actions you can get away with without fear of reprisal. The spirit of a flaw is to force an aspect onto the character by use of a penalty, significant enough that it exceeds a feat. Played right this does indeed meet that, though multiple means. For instance a character with this really cant ever come out and claim responsibility for an act, and thus misses out on some or all of the reward, they cant take the downtimes casters normally use to create spells or copy spells into their spellbooks without taking steps to ensure their safety, and there is a larger implication of this flaw than simple "Me hunt you down and club you until one of us is dead"
::While this kind of situation can arise naturally in a campaign, others can also be duplicated through the application of curses or similiar objects bound to a character, so I consider that argument to be a non starter. Likewise the argument that a flaw isnt supposed to make a players life a living hell? Well, Murkey eyed, one of the UA feats, can be turned into a living hell for whoever took it simply by having everything completely or partially concealed. Slow? Send an army of Rampaging Feral Half Ogre Barbarians after them (For a cool 60ft speed), or dissallow magical and equestrian travel.
::In short, if a DM wants to run with it, its fair enough. Its been fun to play with and it hasnt upset the balance of the game at all so far. I dont see how simply deleting it serves any purpose however. --[[User:Spickle|Spickle]] 22:14, 10 March 2009 (MDT)

:::So what are you guys planning on doing when you outgrow (in power level) the guys that are hunting you in the first place? [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 22:33, 10 March 2009 (MDT)

::::That is not likely to happen until epic level. The group cited as being the aggressors are a group of powerful Arcane casters. The game is kept possible, and not overwhelmingly nasty, by use of subtle machinations and intermediaries in the earlier levels, while personal appearances seem to be just on the horizon. --[[User:Spickle|Spickle]] 05:22, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::If they are epic level, why don't they just teleport in on you, kill or capture you, and leave? It's seriously hard to believe that you have epic-level guys wanting you and you're still alive as a level 1 character. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 08:49, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::An NPC in any game can level as the players do, thus not making for a weaker NPC as the player progresses in skill (he's adventuring just like the players do). --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:32, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::Well, I only have one statement to add to this discussion. As the person who is playtesting this flaw above stated:
:::''The spirit of a flaw is to force an aspect onto the character by use of a penalty, significant enough that it exceeds a feat. Played right this does indeed meet that, though multiple means.''
:::The only problem with that, takes the form of three simple words: "If played right". Now then, this flaw could possibly be amazing for the game if the DM was J.K. Rowling (first famous author to come to my mind), but what if the DM is brand new? what if the DM is extremely nice? what if the DM is (forgive me) stupid? These people probably ''believe'' that they could handle the flaw, and make it interesting, but then they play the game, and Joe, the level 2 Kobold Commoner turns out to be the one hunting them (it's interesting isn't it?). My point is, you ''have'' to play it right in order to get the correct benifit, if it's played wrong, then the character gets a free feat. There's too much "if" tied in with the flaw for it to be playable. → [[User:Rithaniel|Rith]] [[User talk:Rithaniel|(talk)]] 23:11, 10 March 2009 (MDT)

::::The DM in question is new. It doesnt require any special super storytelling abilities, only the ability to realistically portray a villainous or powerful element, which is something of a prerequisite for being a DM in the first place. Admittedly, a poor DM can be messed with and allow this to be abused, but as i have said, the DM has the final say and can Veto it if he/she thinks it is innappropriate. Other flaws can also be vetoed when they have negligable effects on the characters in question. For example, the flaw, Murky Eyed, (Presented on d20srd) is essentially nothing to a character with tremorsense, likewise, the flaw slow has no effect whatsoever on a player with flight of good or higher (And arguably any form of flight), and there are a number of races that grant this, though with level adjustments. Similarly the Pathetic flaw, when applied to ones dump stat, has negligable effect on a persons play except in the rare case of ability score debuffs, such as the Psions Ego Whip, combined with decent saves and the flaw is essentially a free feat for negligable outcome. With the right race you have the same effect. As for the alleged kobold example above, the text of the flaw on the page reads, rather clearly i should point out:
::::"'''''Effect''': You've upset a major power in your area/city/kingdom/plane and they are after blood: your blood''"
::::Emphasis on the term "major". I'll admit it takes a moderate to good DM to pull this off well, but just because it requires some form of skill on the part of both people involved doesnt mean it should be deleted. --[[User:Spickle|Spickle]] 05:22, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::Ok, i have signed up and set all my comments to my name. Not all of what was said above is directed to you Rith, just general comments regarding nullifying the effects of flaws. --[[User:Spickle|Spickle]] 05:38, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::{{quote|The group cited as being the aggressors are a group of powerful Arcane casters|orig=That Guy Defending This}}
::::::So... They teleport in after scrying on you, kill you or capture you with relative ease? The problem here is not with your roleplaiz or "thingz dat r interstin", but they're with the fact a non-mechanical thing gives you a mechanical thing. It's like gaining a money for saying you're a muffin. Then the problem is also enhanced by the fact, y'know, the entire thing hinges on a second party who must have a partial decision (The DM, I'm sure you're going to go off and whine about how the DM IS ALWAYS THAR, but in theory; the DM is impartial). If the people chasing you are "powerful arcane casters", why don't they just use their powerful arcane magic to come and get you easily? Especially if you won't beat them till epic. It's like it's just a niggling little thought there saying "hey, someone's hunting you, not going to come for you though, too busy fapping". So, ultimately; what's the point?
::::::Murky-Eyed; right, because everyone has Tremorsense. And nothing can fly. And nothing with a miss chance is incorporeal either. Pathetic; because having an even lower dump stat never hurt anyone. I mean, Charisma NEVER comes up ever, so might as well dump that, right? The problem, iterated again for your benefit, of your flaw is that it is not a mechanical penalty. It relies on railroads and fiats. That is now how a flaw works. --[[User:TK-Squared|TK-Squared]] 05:47, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::::Wow, you are being pretty seriously obnoxious there. Trying to be intimidating? No, don't answer that. I don't care for the posturing of the intellectually vacant.
:::::::You seem to be misunderstanding the scale and scope of a flaw as it applies to a living game setting. Deliberately, methinks, given your hostility and rather blunt oversimplification. Each character has their own plots and agendas and, as they are a rather evil conglomerate, they have their own internal squabbles.
:::::::The DM and I worked this out, it goes beyond simply a concerted dedicated effort to hunt down and kill a single individual. Power struggles between the individuals at the top demand that they personally expend minimal magical resources on scrying out the target (A simple "If i use energy amount X on target Y, then i cannot use it on my rivals and they will have a slight advantage over me" thing), the campaign is set a decade after the event, a good portion of the early part of this involved my character being beyond the reach of scrying (There are ways, even in the SRD to do this). You are not considering this in the context of a living world. Until a character actually becomes powerful enough to warrant severe action, or is on the way to some other important thing of the NPC's, it is unlikely to waste its energy doing so personally and will instead operate through minions.
:::::::Lets just deal with your comment on nothing can fly, using decent speeds, of course. Raptorans from Savage Species can fly at 40' with good manouverability, Dragonkin from teh Draconicon can fly 40' with Good manouverability, which allows hovering so they need never land at all, shame about the 7 HD though. Nycter are a 3hd creature in MM3 that can fly, Gloamings (Underdark page 12) can fly, and have no racial HD at all, only a +2 LA. Windrazor from MM4 can fly as well, though it has 2HD and a +2 LA, the slow feat seems built for the Pixie, which has a 60 foot fly speed with good manouverability, and a +4 LA. There are other races out there i have not even bothered to mention, but clearly your understanding of the nature of flying player characters is false. Indeed, the spell Overland Flight can be used to overcome the feat more or less indefinately, though it only has average manouverability.
:::::::The rest of it i can see no attempt at you making a point, only you parading your obnoxiousness for all to see. Please refrain from doing so. Answer points raised or remain quiet, and leave your childishness at the door.
:::::::All flaws can be duplicated in game with persistent magical effects or entirely nullified by sufficent application of cheese in the form of prestige classes, races, and templates.--[[User:Spickle|Spickle]] 07:59, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::::Sarcasm, guys. It's serious business. You're being pretty moronic there. Are you retarded? No, don't answer that. I don't care for the posturing of the intellectually vacant. See what I did there, that was parody. Now, let me educate you on sarcasm. The point of saying "Because nothing can fly" was used in mocking of your irrelevant idea of tremorsense. Maybe you didn't get this, because you're too busy trying to rub your own ego with your silly obnoxious prancing.
::::::::So, these POWERFUL ARCANE MAGES can't spare a level 4 spell and 1 hour? Man, those resources must be stretched. Of course, y'know, every level 1 character has access to resources like Mindblank. Obviously! How silly of me to assume not. See that, that was sarcasm again. [http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/nintendogirl14/johnconnor.jpg Are we learning yet?] Clearly you are new to the interwebnets and, therefore, lack the fine understanding of interpretation. This is hard concept to grasp, but soon, when you mature into a respectable interweb citizen, you shall understand this subtle art.
::::::::You also forgot Dragonborn from Races of Dragon, they're pretty decent for flight. Or a Half-Dragon template on a large creature. When you're trying to look cool or something next time, you can use them. No need to thank me.
::::::::A flaw is taken at level 1, it's pretty hard to negate those penalties then. But, of course, your simple mind wanders to "but if i use broken thing x, thing y is negated!". Yes. This is why it's broken. Or why it's called Cheese.
::::::::You seem to be misunderstanding everyone's point against this flaw, one thinks it's because you're incapable of seeing something from someone else's valid viewpoint and you're so hardheaded, you refuse to even understand their points, but instead label them as obnoxious or being "intelectually vacant" (which I found highly amusing, just so you know, you pompous little thing). In a way, it's kind of cute, to see you try and "prove" yourself, or something, to being superior or going around claiming people are obnoxious, while trying to blow on your thumb, silly silly hypocrit.
::::::::Now, unless you want to continue some really lame attempts to insult me; maybe you can direct your attention to the points that were made. I know, it's hard, but don't worry; soon you'll be a big boy. The point still stands that this flaw has no mechanical drawbacks and, for that lack, you gain a mechanical boost. It's like gaining something for nothing; nothing but something that could've been done by simply roleplaying a character well. You don't need this flaw to be hunted; it's just taken so you can get a feat out of it. None of the things described making it "fun" for a DM are things that he couldn't do anyway. But, if the hunter is making no attempts to hunt you other than "Oh, twiddly my fingers until he turns up somewhere", especially at level 1, it's going to be just "+1 Feat!".
::::::::Ultimately; this isn't a flaw, it's a roleplaying aspect of a game that gives you a bonus for no real reason. --[[User:TK-Squared|TK-Squared]] 09:05, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::::::Could you turn down the insults, please, TK? Please don't turn this into another [[Discussion:Most Unbalanced Class|''most unbalanced class'']] argument... --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:21, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::::::I've Removed template:delete, as this article is well written (again). If you don't like it as a [whatever], move it to 4e other. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:26, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::::::::You apparently don't even understand what flaws are, the purpose of my marking half of them on the wiki for deletion, or even what this article is, so please do not touch this article or the template again. '''It is not even 4e!''' [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 09:27, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::::::::Well Spickle, I'd like to offer an official welcome to the wiki. [By the way, just so you know, TK can be rather [I think you can put your own word here [no offense intended to TK]]] I don't have any time to type up any kind of considerable contribution to this discussion right now, and am really just typing this to avoid you from getting scared away by Mr. Squared. Though I'll type up a proper response to your statements above later. → [[User:Rithaniel|Rith]] [[User talk:Rithaniel|(talk)]] 09:33, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

{{Discussion Indentation Revert}}

:[[User:Spickle|Spickle]] and [[User:TK-Squared|TK-Squared]] please remember to stay civil. Also please keep in mind that not everyone thinks like you, just like you do not think like everyone else. Because you were being rude and inconsiderate to each other, this a warning. Please try to be nice. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 13:28, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

== My mini Edit War With Sam Kay ==

If the flaw gets balanced, the delete template can be removed. Right now, please stop touching it because it is clear that you do not understand flaws or their balancing. Whether or not it is well-written has no bearing on balance. You have yet to even give a balance argument on this page. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 09:29, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:Template delete should not be added until you've tried to fix it. I'm not getting involved in this argument, I'm just saying that before you delete stuff because of various reasons, please try to fix them; it's not just a random thing someone's put here, it has good quality text, regardless of balance. Also, I know what a flaw is, I just removed the template because I think it should be fixed rather than deleted. Also, that 4e thing was a typo. Sorry. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:39, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::The entire point is that it's unfixable because it goes against the most absolute basic rules for flaws as laid out in Unearthed Arcana. I haven't tried to fix it because the entire concept is unfixable. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 09:40, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

== After Skimming the Discussions ==

I only skimmed the discussions, but I say don't delete. Instead split the flaws up into "3.5e UA-Style Flaws" and "3.5e User-Defined Flaws." (Oddly enough, the first set of flaws posted on the wiki used a house-rule different from what's in the UA.) This way each flaw that doesn't fit the UA specs, can have its own rules defined within the flaw itself. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]] | [[User talk:Admin|admin talk]]) 09:56, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:A house rule that has since been acknowledged to have been a mistake and has been removed, and things that used that concept have all been moved to the Traits section of the wiki. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 12:28, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:I'm not going to get into an edit war over the deletion template. Here are the facts:
:*This flaw is workable, though only if the DM takes proper advantage of it
:*This flaw is weak in comparison to most, and can possibly be abused by players to get another trait
:*This article is well written
:So, here is what this article needs: '''playtesting'''. Not deletion. Maybe we should come up with a playtesting template in lieu of deletion. However, deletion is entirely improper. If it were to be reworked, say if I made a '''Hunted, Hooper Variant (DnD Flaw)''' I'd change what was gained to something else entirely instead of a feat. Maybe to something that eases the person's ability to stay hidden from said group - small bonus to hide/move silently, or the effectiveness of having one of the lower level stealthy feats. Or, better yet, not give any bonus - leave that to the counterbalancing trait. [[User:Hooper|''' Hooper ''']][[User talk:Hooper|  talk  ]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|  contribs  ]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|  email  ]] 10:52, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::Here are more facts that you don't mention but are every bit as important:
::* Unearthed Arcana defines '''very''' clearly and '''very''' specifically what flaws should do.
::* Unearthed Arcana says '''very''' clearly that "A flaw must have a numeric effect on a character's specific capabilities. Flaws with primarily roleplaying or story effects have unpredictable effects on game balance."
::* This flaw is purely a story effect and roleplaying, and has no numerical effect.
::* In addition to the above, the flaw makes no sense in the context of the Dungeons & Dragons world. After a certain point, it becomes irrelevant. In most cases, before a certain point, you have to wonder how the character even survives (see the above discussion) if the world is to even be believable.
::As long as this article does not do what a flaw is supposed to do, it should not be on the wiki. Deletion is entirely proper here. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 12:27, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::I'd like to see where you are getting your quote from UA at, as I'm reading it now and do not see what you are claiming to quote.  [[User:Hooper|''' Hooper ''']][[User talk:Hooper|  talk  ]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|  contribs  ]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|  email  ]] 12:38, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::[http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingcharacters/characterflaws.htm]. It's, like, right there. Under Metagame Analysis: Creating Flaws. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 12:39, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::Ah, in a sidebar. That helps. <s>However, once again, this does not say '''no''' to roleplaying-only flaws, only discourages them as they may imbalance. So I still see this as a playtesting issue.</s> ''(Edit:Scratch this, rereading brings it across properly. Under this light, that is true. However the article can still be easily saved. Watch.)'' I'd personally completely remove the +1 feat though. Take a flaw - take a trait. No need for other bonuses.  [[User:Hooper|''' Hooper ''']][[User talk:Hooper|  talk  ]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|  contribs  ]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|  email  ]] 12:43, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::<s>What the hell? How does the word '''must''' not say no to roleplaying flaws? It doesn't get any more crystal clear than that.</s> (edit: nevermind that, since the above post was edited). If you want to make it into a trait, go ahead and the deletion template can be removed. But a flaw very specifically gives one bonus feat -- if it's not doing that, it isn't a flaw. It's a trait. And it should not be in the flaw namespace. Go ahead and move it and make it actually workable as a trait. I'm not stopping you. In fact, I'll be happy. The sooner this is out of the Flaws section the better. It still needs changes to be a trait, but they aren't so severe. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 12:46, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::Users are allowed to define their own sub-mechanics for d20. In fact, before any UA material showed up on this wiki, someone posted their own variant rules for [[Character Flaws (DnD Variant Rule)|character flaws]]. This isn't anything WotC hadn't been doing all throughout 3(.5)e. They started with spells, added psionic powers, added epic spells, added soulmelds, added invocations, added skill tricks, added substitution levels, and so on and so on. This is in addition to the slew of variant rules in the UA. Clearly, this is not a flaw as specified by the UA, but that alone is not enough to warrant deletion. It can be a flaw in some other rule system or a stand-alone variant rule. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]] | [[User talk:Admin|admin talk]]) 12:50, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::And that alone isn't the only reason it's up for deletion. It's just one of several. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 12:52, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::What? Sledged is saying that just because this does not follow Wizards rules for flaws it shouldn't warrant deletion. Instead of being required to follow the UA flaw rules, it should be labeled as a "variant flaw" within the variant flaw rulesystem of "You gain something at the price of something else." And I agree. We now just need to make a variant flaw area. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 13:12, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::And yet none of those reasons are listed in the [[Template:Delete|delete template]]. Let me rephrase: Its failure to adhere to all the UA rules for flaws neither adds to nor takes away from the merit of it being deleted. It is grounds for it to be renamed, moved, tagged as non-UA flaw, made to conform to UA rules, etc... But of all the reasons for this flaw to be deleted, the one given in the delete template is one that has no business being there. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]] | [[User talk:Admin|admin talk]]) 13:06, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::Then I shall change the message on the delete template. In addition, ''there is no tag'' for non-UA flaws (nonsensical to me, seeing as how the rules for flaws are defined in UA). Perhaps one should be added. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:09, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::It's a "straw that broke the camel's back" thing. There are a lot of reasons that together add up into "this should be deleted". Unquantifiable effect, effect on all party members instead of yourself, not following UA guidelines, causes verisimilitude problems in the world (see discussion with Hooper below)...lots of straws. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:15, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

==Altering the flaw==
Here is my suggestion to make the flaw more playable:

*Reword the effect part as follows:

'''Effect:''' You've upset a major power in your area/city/kingdom/plane and they are after blood: your blood. Maybe, if you're lucky, they will spare your companions of your fate...maybe. Regardless, you will be hunted and brought to justice. Of course, one's brand of justice has always been a subjective term. Your pursuers have vastly spread the word of your demise around, and others are less likely to have dealings with you. As such, '''You take a -4 Penalty on all Bluff, Disguise, Diplomacy, and Gather Information checks.'''

Comments/Suggestions/Thoughts?  [[User:Hooper|''' Hooper ''']][[User talk:Hooper|  talk  ]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|  contribs  ]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|  email  ]] 12:48, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::I removed the ''"remove bonus feat"'' suggestion. It was coming across to me as if this flaw gave a second additional feat in addition to the one you get just for taking a flaw. Now I see what it is saying - just the basics. Nevermind that then.  [[User:Hooper|''' Hooper ''']][[User talk:Hooper|  talk  ]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|  contribs  ]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|  email  ]] 12:50, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::Then it's not a flaw anymore, because flaws give bonus feats. It's a trait but unlike other traits, it doesn't actually do anything. It needs to have some ''minor'' bonus to actually be useful at all. This idea is sorta similar to the character backgrounds in [[Races of War (DnD Other)]], which itself is similar to traits. Move it to the trait section of the wiki, give it some minor bonus. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 12:52, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::I believe your first reply is invalidated by my edited add-on to the suggestion. You may wish to re-read the proposal.  [[User:Hooper|''' Hooper ''']][[User talk:Hooper|  talk  ]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|  contribs  ]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|  email  ]] 12:56, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::Your proposal doesn't make sense. Why would you take a -4 penalty on those checks if you were being hunted by the Kingdom of Eternal Light on the Prime Material Plane and then plane shifted to Carceri where nobody has even heard of or cares about the Kingdom of Eternal Light? [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 12:58, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::The answer to that goes back to the author's comments: that this flaw does in fact take some prep and thought and time from the DM. That is not a reason for deletion. Playtesting, maybe. Deletion, no.  [[User:Hooper|''' Hooper ''']][[User talk:Hooper|  talk  ]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|  contribs  ]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|  email  ]] 13:01, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::What playtesting is required here? If such a simple case as "I just move to Carceri where nobody cares" breaks the whole concept in two, there's something seriously wrong. In addition, I don't think people quite get the concept of what playtesting is. Playtesting involves math. It involves rigor. It tells you absolutely by the rigorous process known as mathematical analysis whether something is broken or not. There is no mathematical analysis that can be applied to this flaw.[[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:03, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::Because "such a simple case" '''''doesn't''''' break the whole concept in two, as you put it. It just provides the DM with planar power-packing NPCs under the hire of the pursuer to track down the PC, leaving him constantly in a state of moving and paranoia, and with the added minuses and hits to his skills that are used alot when meeting new people, it really may work out. As such, playtesting is appropriate.  [[User:Hooper|''' Hooper ''']][[User talk:Hooper|  talk  ]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|  contribs  ]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|  email  ]] 13:06, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::::If the NPCs are packing planar power and are capable of tracking you across things like planes, why didn't they just teleport to you and kill you when you first committed the crime and were on the run? Verisimilitude problems abound with this flaw. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:07, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::::Presumably, the PC was a very low level (since this is at character creation) when the crime was committed. Therefor, the NPCs would not overkill and just send out an aggressor to handle the problem. As the PC grew in level and constantly met their challenge, the NPCs would get more and more frustrated, sending higher and higher power until maybe even coming themselves. Once again, this discussion we're having right now is all playtesting - not deletion.  [[User:Hooper|''' Hooper ''']][[User talk:Hooper|  talk  ]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|  contribs  ]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|  email  ]] 13:10, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::::::So there are two cases: 1, what the PC did was important enough to warrant the use of resources on the power level to track across multiple planes. 2, what the PC did was '''not''' important enough for that. In the case of 1, why would the resources '''not''' be used immediately? That makes absolutely no sense. In the case of 2, why would you then expend the resources to track across multiple planes if what the PC did was not important enough to expend those resources? That also makes no sense. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:13, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::::::These are all good, warranted questions Surgo, with many possible answers or no answer - which is exactly why playtesting would be great for this.  [[User:Hooper|''' Hooper ''']][[User talk:Hooper|  talk  ]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|  contribs  ]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|  email  ]] 13:14, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::::::::You can't playtest something that's unquantifiable. Playtesting is the subjecting of a rule to less-than-completely-rigorous mathematical analysis. You can't subject something unquantifiable to mathematical analysis. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:17, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::::::::Their are so many options for this it can never be balanced. But it can be very interesting. For example it could be a childhood rival who has always hated the PC. As soon as the PC left home he left home too, always following him, adventuring while following. Hunting him. When the PC gains a level, he gains a level. The reason it can never be balanced is because it is always up to the DM, and just the DM. He could make this childhood rival meet them in a dungeon, right before a nasty creature. As they injure each other the NPC flees (to fight again another day). Then the PC's have to go face the nasty creature. That is not balanced. Although what happens when the inevitable will happen? The PC defeats this problem? Will he lose the feat? The issue with this is it can never be balanced, but it does add an unique flavor to the game. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 13:23, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

== Summation of Arguments and Possible Solutions ==

Okay, since everything has gotten long, I'll try to sum up the arguments against this as a flaw:
* Unquantifiable effect.
* Effect on all party members instead of yourself.
* Not following UA guidelines that define what flaws actually are...like, at all.
* Causes verisimilitude problems in the world (see [[#Altering the flaw|discussion with Hooper]]).

How can this be fixed? Well, let's recognize that it's a character background. That makes it a perfect choice for being done as either a [[UA:Character Traits|Trait]] or a [[Races of War (DnD Other)/Warriors with Style#Character Background|Character Background]]. But not a flaw, which is very specific in what it should accomplish. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:20, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:Hooper's reply
:*Do not agree that point one exists
:*Could be a valid bad thing, needs to be playtested or reworded to more rigorously effect the PC and not his party.
:*See above discussion for Green Dragon's idea, as well as a variant above with my thoughts on how to make it conform
:*Do not agree that point four exists.
:Next person's reply?  [[User:Hooper|''' Hooper ''']][[User talk:Hooper|  talk  ]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|  contribs  ]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|  email  ]] 13:24, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::You can't just say that "this effect is quantifiable", you have to '''actually quantify it'''. If it can't be quantified...it is obviously unquantifiable. And if it is not quantifiable, it cannot be playtested. So please quantify the effect it if you want to make the point. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:26, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::*It does have an unquantifiable effect. Too many variables exist to ever make it so it does not have a different effect every game, therefore unquantifiable.
:::*I agree - that's a problem.
:::*Just make a variant flaw area. This is irrelevant.
:::*This is just a result of the unquantifiable effect.
:::So the problems stand:
:::#Unquantifiable effect.
:::#Has an effect on the entire party.
:::Does that warrant deletion, is the question, or can it be salvaged? --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 13:35, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

::::I believe it can be salvaged, but '''not''' as a flaw but instead a [[UA:Character Traits|Trait]] or a [[Races of War (DnD Other)/Warriors with Style#Character Background|Character Background]]. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:38, 11 March 2009 (MDT)

:::::I think there is a possibility it can still work as a flaw. Take this for example (mind you this is not balanced and still only partially solves the first problem, and does not even touch the second):
:::::'''Effect:''' You've upset someone earlier in your life and they are now after blood: your blood. Maybe, if you're lucky, they will spare your companions of your fate... maybe. Regardless, you will be hunted until killed.
:::::A character of your ECL -1 is hunting you to your death. Maybe he is a childhood rival who was annoyed he could never beat you, maybe he is a madman who thinks you stole something of his, or maybe he is a wizard who can look into the future and knows for his sake he wants you dead. No matter their background — they want you dead. And that is all that matters.
:::::Each day that passes the DM rolls a d%. On a 1-5 your hunter will find you that day and confront you. Where and when they confront you is entirely up to the DM. If your hunter seems to have the loosing hand he will retreat to fight again another day. If you stay in the same area for two days it increases to a 1-10. Three days a 1-15. Four days 1-20, etc.
:::::''Note:'' If the hunter dies the DM must use his imagination. Maybe he gets resurrected. Maybe someone else starts hunting you because you killed their friend, in any case someone is still hunting you and you better run.
:::::'''Benefit:''' Bonus feat.
:::::Just to get some ideas rolling. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 15:01, 11 March 2009 (MDT)
::::::I was actually thinking something along those lines, Green Dragon, if I had to put in some dice mechanics. (And Might I say Holy Crap! I didn't expect this to escalate in such a manner! Great, though. It's a great flaw.) Also, to point out, I have play tested this flaw on numerous occasions. I used it for a long campaign and it kept the player on his toes. As to his "Kingdom of Eternal Light" argument, I can argue that..but I'll put it where he first begun. --[[User:Flession|Flession]] 14:40, 12 March 2009 (MDT)

::::::But in any case I feel this does need to become a trait to be made usable, since it really does not follow the UA flaw rules right now. It can be moved into a variant-flaw when or if that section is made. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 13:32, 12 March 2009 (MDT)

Talk:Hunted (3.5e Trait)

2009-03-11T01:06:39Z

Flession:

Talk:Hunted (3.5e Trait)

2009-03-11T00:40:37Z

Flession: /* Proposal for Deletion */

Talk:Hunted (3.5e Trait)

2009-03-11T00:38:54Z

Flession: /* Proposal for Deletion */

Talk:Hunted (3.5e Trait)

2009-03-11T00:38:08Z

Flession: /* Proposal for Deletion */

Talk:Hunted (3.5e Trait)

2009-03-10T05:40:53Z

Flession: /* Proposal for Deletion */

Talk:Hunted (3.5e Trait)

2009-03-10T05:21:58Z

Flession: /* Proposal for Deletion */

Talk:Hunted (3.5e Trait)

2009-03-10T05:17:59Z

Flession:

Talk:Captain America (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

2009-01-31T08:06:56Z

Flession:

Talk:Katana (3.5e Equipment)

2008-07-06T03:32:38Z

Flession: /* The Point? */

== Weapon Descriptions ==

This needs to be added to [[Weapon Descriptions]]... Also, I feel that someone should cross reference those two lists. I bet so many weapons are missing from it. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 22:40, 3 July 2008 (MDT)

==Balance==

I just read in close detail. 18-20/x3 for one feat? O.O Do you smell limburger? Because OW.... there's a reason why high crit ranges and high crit amounts should never mix. -- [[User:Eiji|Eiji]] 22:48, 3 July 2008 (MDT)

== The Point? ==

Umm...to be perfectly blunt, why am I going to get this item when I can just grab a Masterwork Bastard Sword (which, according to the DMG, is basically what it is) and have the same crit range and a higher damage output at a lower cost? -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 23:45, 3 July 2008 (MDT)
:Oh, it appears I missed the 18-20 crit range with the proper feat. I now second Eiji's previous post. -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 21:32, 5 July 2008 (MDT)

Talk:Katana (3.5e Equipment)

2008-07-06T03:32:01Z

Flession: /* The Point? */

== Weapon Descriptions ==

This needs to be added to [[Weapon Descriptions]]... Also, I feel that someone should cross reference those two lists. I bet so many weapons are missing from it. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 22:40, 3 July 2008 (MDT)

==Balance==

I just read in close detail. 18-20/x3 for one feat? O.O Do you smell limburger? Because OW.... there's a reason why high crit ranges and high crit amounts should never mix. -- [[User:Eiji|Eiji]] 22:48, 3 July 2008 (MDT)

== The Point? ==

Umm...to be perfectly blunt, why am I going to get this item when I can just grab a Masterwork Bastard Sword (which, according to the DMG, is basically what it is) and have the same crit range and a higher damage output at a lower cost? -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 23:45, 3 July 2008 (MDT)
:Oh, it appears I missed the 18-20 crit range with the proper feat. I now second Sam Kay's previous post. -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 21:32, 5 July 2008 (MDT)

Talk:Katana (3.5e Equipment)

2008-07-04T05:48:12Z

Flession: just tweaked a thing.

Talk:Katana (3.5e Equipment)

2008-07-04T05:45:54Z

Flession: /* The Point? */

== Weapon Descriptions ==

This needs to be added to [[Weapon Descriptions]]... Also, I feel that someone should cross reference those two lists. I bet so many weapons are missing from it. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 22:40, 3 July 2008 (MDT)

==Balance==

I just read in close detail. 18-20/x3 for one feat? O.O Do you smell limburger? Because OW.... there's a reason why high crit ranges and high crit amounts should never mix. -- [[User:Eiji|Eiji]] 22:48, 3 July 2008 (MDT)

== The Point? ==

Umm...to be perfectly blunt, why am I going to get this item, when I can just grab a Masterwork Bastard Sword (which, according to the DMG, is basically what it is) and have the same crit range and a higher damage output? -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 23:45, 3 July 2008 (MDT)

Talk:Katana (3.5e Equipment)

2008-07-04T05:45:47Z

Flession: New section: The Point?

== Weapon Descriptions ==

This needs to be added to [[Weapon Descriptions]]... Also, I feel that someone should cross reference those two lists. I bet so many weapons are missing from it. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 22:40, 3 July 2008 (MDT)

==Balance==

I just read in close detail. 18-20/x3 for one feat? O.O Do you smell limburger? Because OW.... there's a reason why high crit ranges and high crit amounts should never mix. -- [[User:Eiji|Eiji]] 22:48, 3 July 2008 (MDT)

== The Point? ==

Umm...to be perfectly blunt, why am I going to get this item, when I can just grab a Masterwork Bastard Sword (which, according to the DMG, is basically what it is) and have the same crit range and a higher damage output?

Talk:Flame Stalker Cloak (3.5e Equipment)

2008-06-29T19:19:51Z

Flession: /* Price Check */

== Price Check ==

Umm...I don't think something with those kind of abilities can actually cost only 1200 gp. You might want to check up on your [[SRD:Creating Magic Items|Math]]...

I've noticed that [[SRD: Continual Flame|Continual Flame]] has absolutely nothing to do with dealing damage. If anything, the spell that is close enough for the continual effect you are looking for is [[SRD:Fire Shield|Fire Shield]], which would most defiantly increase the cost of the spell...not to include the fact that you actually have other spells added onto this cloak, and the fact that silence does not factor in bonus to hide [[SRD:Darkness|Darkness does]]), which ups the cost, as per the chart. Frankly, any person who would sell this kind of cloak for 1200 would have to be on some strong drugs...

...not to say I wouldn't love this cloak to be only 1200.

Also, a cloak does not take up the chest slot. -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 04:37, 18 June 2008 (MDT)

:Why would you gain a bonus to hide while partially sheathed in fire? I don't understand; surely fire would make you ''more'' visible? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 10:50, 21 June 2008 (MDT)
:: You ever hear of "black flames?" ;) -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 13:19, 29 June 2008 (MDT)

Over 100 Ways to Die (DnD Other)

2008-06-27T06:57:58Z

Flession:

I will oranize all these...eventually.

#Killed by a monster
#Drown
#Starve
#Fire
#Lava
#Weather
#Storm
#Hurricane
#Tornado
#Hyperthemia
#Hypothermia
#Acid
#Buried alive
#Falling
#Being Fallen Upon
#Landslide
#Avalanche
#Flash Flood
#Thirst
#Falling in iced over lake
#Lack of Air from High Altitude
#Suffocation
#Smoke
#Magic
#Traps
#Poison
#Disease
#Execution
#Captured and killed (or tortured)
#Bleeding to death
#Subject of curse that kills you
#Killed by a spell
#Killed by a spell backfiring on you
#Quicksand
#Being hung
#Commiting suicide
#''Commanded'' adventurer kills you
#Being crushed by a rock
#Caught in a collapsing building
#Astral cord severed when in Astral Plane
#Animal kills you
#''Commanded'' animal kills you
#''Commanded'' monster kills you
#[[SRD:Flesh to Stone|Flesh to Stone]], followed by destroying the statue.

Over 100 Ways to Die (DnD Other)

2008-06-27T06:57:19Z

Flession:

I will oranize all these...eventually.

#Killed by a monster
#Drown
#Starve
#Fire
#Lava
#Weather
#Storm
#Hurricane
#Tornado
#Hyperthemia
#Hypothermia
#Acid
#Buried alive
#Falling
#Being Fallen Upon
#Landslide
#Avalanche
#Flash Flood
#Thirst
#Falling in iced over lake
#Lack of Air from High Altitude
#Suffocation
#Smoke
#Magic
#Traps
#Poison
#Disease
#Execution
#Captured and killed (or tortured)
#Bleeding to death
#Subject of curse that kills you
#Killed by a spell
#Killed by a spell backfiring on you
#Quicksand
#Being hung
#Commiting suicide
#''Commanded'' adventurer kills you
#Being crushed by a rock
#Caught in a collapsing building
#Astral cord severed when in Astral Plane
#Animal kills you
#''Commanded'' animal kills you
#''Commanded'' monster kills you
%[[Flesh to Stone]], followed by destroying the statue.

Captain America (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

2008-06-27T06:51:15Z

Flession: /* Progression */

{{author
|author_name= Flession
|date_created= 7/20/07
|status= Always working.
}}

== Introduction ==

We all know who he is. He's been a iconic member of the American Heritage for years. Even though his death should be well known by now, his legacy and his combat prowess is legendary. His main prowess was his shield and his combat prowess. He was a formidable combatant, well respected within the super hero community, and now, you can play Captain America TM as well.

== References ==

{| class="d20" style="text-align: left;"
|+ Books Needed
! Non SRD Item !! Book Found In
|-
| Master Thrower || Complete Warrior
|- class="even"
| Brutal Throw || Complete Adventurer
|-
| Ranged Sunder || Players Handbook II
|- class="even"
| Shield Specialization || Players Handbook II
|-
| Shield Toss || Players Handbook II
|}

As a reference point, this is the build I am using for a upcoming tournament at a con this year, so I have made this build only to ECL 11 and I had to follow [http://www.thecheesegrinder.com/mod/resource/view.php?inpopup=true&id=43| these rules and regulations] If you have any suggestions to improve this build or correct any mistakes I make, I welcome it in the discussion board.

== Game Rule Components ==

=== Race and Templates ===

[[SRD:Humans (Race)|Human]]

=== Classes ===

[[SRD:Fighter (Class)|Fighter]]/Master Thrower PrC

=== Feats ===
[[SRD:Improved Shield Bash (Feat)|Improved Shield Bash]], [[SRD:Point Blank Shot (Feat)|Point Blank Shot]], [[SRD:Precise Shot (Feat)|Precise Shot]], Shield Specialization, [[SRD:Far Shot (Feat)|Far Shot]], Shield Throw, Brutal Throw, Ranged Sunder

=== Spells, Powers, Items ===

A +1 [[SRD:Throwing (Weapon Enhancement)|Thowing]], [[SRD:Returning (Weapon Enhancement)|Returning]], [[SRD:Bashing|Bashing]] [[SRD:Adamantine (Term)|Adamantine]] [[SRD:Shield Spike, Heavy Shield (Weapon)|Heavy Spiked Shield]]

Anything else that can increase one's throwing range.

[[SRD:Boots of Striding and Springing (Wondrous Item)|Boots of Striding and Springing]] Optional, but it's always a good move to move 10 more feet.

=== Miscellaneous ===

The main thing with this is build is you have to raise your slight of hand to 4 ranks by 6th level, so basically, you can expect to use the majority of your skill points doing this. With the fighter not exactly having a whole bunch of them, you would be losing out on the important skills the fighter has, like craft...and intimidate...and..umm...profession? Yeaaa...you should be good on that.

== Progression ==

I have a 48 point buy, so I decided my stats would be 18, 17, 14, 12, 12, 13

{| class="d20" style="text-align: left;"
|-
! ECL !! Class/HD/LA !! Feats !! Special
|-
| 1st || [[SRD:Fighter (Class)|Fighter]] || [[SRD:Improved Shield Bash|Improved Shield Bash]], [[SRD:Point Blank Shot|Point Blank Shot]]B, [[SRD:Precise Shot|Precise Shot]]B ||
|- class="even"
| 2nd || [[SRD:Fighter (Class)|Fighter]] || Shield SpecializationB ||
|-
| 3rd || [[SRD:Fighter (Class)|Fighter]] || [[SRD:Far Shot|Far Shot]] ||
|- class="even"
| 4th || [[SRD:Fighter (Class)|Fighter]] || Shield ThrowB ||
|-
| 5rd || [[SRD:Fighter (Class)|Fighter]] || ||
|- class="even"
| 6th || [[SRD:Fighter (Class)|Fighter]] || Ranged SunderB, [[Improved Unarmed Strike]] ||
|-
| 7rd || Master Thrower || [[SRD:Quick Draw|Quick Draw]]B || thrown weapon trick (deadeye shot)
|- class="even"
| 8th || Master Thrower || || [[SRD:Evasion and Improved Evasion (Special Ability)|evasion]]
|-
| 9rd || Master Thrower || [[SRD:Weapon Focus|Weapon Focus]] (heavy shield bash) || thrown weapon trick (two in one blow)
|- class="even"
| 10th || Master Thrower || [[SRD:Snatch Arrows|Snatch Arrows]]B ||
|-
| 11rd || Master Thrower || [[SRD:Improved Critical|Improved Critical]] for any weapon that you have weapon focus with. || critical throw, thrown weapon trick (weak spot)
|- class="even"
|}

== Highlights ==
2d6 throwing weapon!!! 2d6 THROWING, RETURNING WEAPON!! 2d6 THROWING, RETURNING, SUNDERING WITH ALMOST NO WORRY ON HARDNESS SHIELD! Sure, right now you can get that up to 60 feet (20 for Shield Throw, 10 for Throwing, x2 for Far Shot). However, I am sure there are plenty of items, especially in the MIC that can help this build entirely. Also, the fact that the character will have good fort and reflex, as well as evasion, as well as the best BAB a character can have at 11th level make this a great combination. Maybe grabbing a item that can help out with the will saves would add the final touch to ol' Cap.

== Munchkin-Size Me ==

Gloves of Taarnahm the Vigilant (PGtF, 10,000 gp) Gives any weapon you are holding throwing and returning weapon qualities. That would allow the shield to get extra abilities and save me a few bonuses. Perhaps put the +1 to +3, or add on other things to it as well.

Gauntlets of Extended Range: MIC p.103, they double the range of any thrown weapon or object. no activation. 2000 gold. Increase my range by another x2? That shield will be flying with these.

Throwing Enhancement: Allows the user to throw a shield 30 ft and does damage based on its size (1d6/1d8). It also grants the returning enhancement at no additional cost. +1 Shield Enhancement cost

'''EDIT
Heroes of Battle has an awesome feat - Shield Block - Its basically Deflect Arrows. You only need Dex 13 and Shield Prof. Had the Capn' had it, he could have ignored one shot per round, especially that last one.'''

----
Back to [[Main Page]] → [[Dungeons and Dragons]] → [[DnD Optimized Character Builds|Optimized Character Builds]]
[[Category:DnD]]
[[Category:User]]
[[Category:Optimized Character Build]]
[[Category:WotC Rules Only]]

Talk:Captain America (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

2008-06-27T06:44:08Z

Flession: /* Improved Unarmed Strike */

Discussion:The Tavern: use, expansion, and availability.

2008-06-18T20:01:02Z

Flession: /* How can we get people into the Tavern? */

==How can we get people into the Tavern?==

=== [[User:Mander|Mander]] 19:21, 16 December 2007 (MST) ===

There is almost never anyone in the Tavern. The Tavern has the potential to be one fo the greatest tools on this wiki. What are some ideas to bring people in? I have a few.

#Log into the Tavern when you are exploring and editing dandwiki. You will be away from the chat, but you will be logged in. Just check back once in a wile to see if some one is talking to you. I try to have the tavern open in another tab whenever I can.
#Perhaps dandwiki admin could spend some time there. Maybe they could even be there during particular hours of the week, sort of like office hours.
#Perhaps add a message at the beginning that says something like "Hay new comer! Don’t log out right away, some times the people who are in the tavern are editing and it will take them a few moments to check back.” The Fancy Big letters TAVERN don’t that well anyways, at least not on my browser.

=== [[User:Eiji|Eiji]] 21:11, 16 December 2007 (MST) ===

....what.. Tavern? Apparently I am out of the loop. (Checks to see there is a link) Oooo....

Well, news to me. Good thing I found this.

=== [[User:Wackymynd|Wackymynd]] 15:43, 31 December 2007 (MST) ===

I agree with Mander. I discovered the Tavern almost first thing here, but nobody ever seems to be in it. In fact, I am in there in another tab right now.

=== [[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 00:49, 1 January 2008 (MST) ===

Maybe the solution is to make [[The Tavern]] ones homepage ''':P'''.

=== [[User:Cronocke|Cronocke]] 01:30, 7 January 2008 (MST) ===

Personally, I'd suggest making the Tavern accessible from outside the wiki's Java IRC applet, or hosting it on another server if it's the server that's restricting that. I'd love to go to the Tavern and talk to people, but
# Nobody's ever there, and...
# I'm not keeping a browser window open just for that one thing, when I already have an IRC client installed.

=== [[User:Flession|Flession]] 01:45, 12 January 2008 (MST) ===

Maybe consider running a D&D campaign on it once a week to draw people out or some sort of fighting arena. Something to bring people to the chat itself. Maybe also find some way for us to be possible to roll dice in it.

=== [[User:Wackymynd|Wackymynd]] 14:03, 15 January 2008 (MST) ===

Great idea, Flession!

=== [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] ([[User_talk:Blue Dragon|talk]]) 14:07, 15 January 2008 (MST) ===

I strongly feel that this should be organized as well. I do not feel that requiring users to be on the Tavern at all times is very acceptable---not only will it put an unnecessary load on the server, it could detract from the Wiki, which is the core part of D&D Wiki. I feel that the Tavern has the potential to become an amazing tool---I feel that it just has to become more organized so something will come out of it. I will create a [[Tavern Schedule]], upon which users could add times which they feel would be good to have a discussion, and what the discussion would cover. A link could then be created for the times for that day.

=== [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] ([[User_talk:Blue Dragon|talk]]) 14:49, 15 January 2008 (MST) ===

Is there an honest demand for having me allow IRC connections from the world? This poses a large security risk, both through the technology, it not being on a dedicated server (albeit separate from D&D Wiki's server), and by furthering the inability to verify the identity of users in The Tavern.

=== [[User:DainTrinity|DainTrinity]] 2:52, 13 February 2008 (MST) ===

Sorry if I have made an error in the code; this is my first time posting on this type of forum (And on this site). I would be willing to hold a weekly or bi-weekly game in the Tavern to create activity and more of a sense of community. I assure you, I am an experienced Dungeon Master both online and offline.

=== [[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:55, 15 February 2008 (MST) ===

The campaign idea is the best idea I have heard so far for the tavern. Feel free to start one! Post the date and the time in the [[Tavern Schedule]] (click on a red link, fill out the information, and click save page). I will, without a doubt, try to be present, and I hope other people feel the same way. ''':)'''. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:55, 15 February 2008 (MST)

=== [[User:Hawk|Hawk]] 06:46, 16 February 2008 (MST) ===

I would be there for the first one if I have fun I'd keep turning up.

=== [[User:Eiji|Eiji]] 16:26, 16 February 2008 (MST) ===

A campaign? You have my attention. Time, place, setting. Must... create... characters..

=== [[User:Flession|Flession]] 13:43, 19 February 2008 (MST) ===

I'm still all up for a tourney as well. Hell, make it a campaign based off a tourney. Also, I've always wanted to run a backstabbing campaign...hmm...

=== [[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 13:56, 19 February 2008 (MST) ===

The problems with a PvP tourney as I learned are:

* It is easy to optimize. It is hard to stop overpowered optimization.
* There are points in every D&D game where the DM must make a judgment call -- this seems to be "playing favorites" (even if it isn't).

If someone runs a campaign I am in though!

=== [[User:Othtim|Othtim]] 17:08, 19 February 2008 (MST) ===

I'm down. I'm busy a lot, but I can probably make time one day a week if it's late in the evening. --[[User:Othtim|Othtim]] 17:08, 19 February 2008 (MST)

: Oh, and also - how about setting up a status message or something that shows up somewhere on the site when there's someone in the tavern? Is this a feature you could build into the innkeeper bot? --[[User:Othtim|Othtim]] 17:56, 19 February 2008 (MST)

=== [[User:Dan2|Dan2]] 22:22, 19 February 2008 (MST) ===

Huh, never looked into the Tavern before. Although it's unlikely I'd be able to keep up with it, running a campaign in there sounds like a great deal of fun.

=== [[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 04:20, 20 February 2008 (MST) ===

I'd join in. Just a thought, though. How would you keep track of the location of each character in relation to each other? Minis aren't easy to use in the tavern (I assume). Would it be like chess by post? "Redgar to E1. Check and Mate". who would DM?

===[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 09:43, 2 March 2008 (MST)===
A campaign on the tavern......Nice idea, maybe make a more welcoming interface will also bring people.
If we are running a campaign on the tavern we should have a special page where the campaign information can be seen, like the position of each players, their character sheet and many other thing. But we must first:

* Who will be the DM
* In which campaign the game will be?
* Can we allow multiple campaign running a different day of the week
* Find a way to note the important detail (like a special page)
* And ofcourse....Stop power players from ruining the game !
we should also add a message while the game is running like: A game is running please don't disturp.
If all those factor are respected and the players serious enough this may be a great experience.

=== [[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 22:17, 12 March 2008 (MDT) ===

Who would like to DM? Once we have a DM we can try out the first game session.

=== [[User:Ganteka|Ganteka]] 22:55, 16 June 2008 (MDT) ===

[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] has posted a [[Special:TheTavern|Tavern]] special event in the [[Tavern Schedule|Tavern's schedule]] page for running a 2 hour game as a test. If you all want it to work, go check it out. Also, [[Special:TheTavern|The Tavern]] has been very busy as of late, and we are always looking for more people to join in on the fun, discussing rules, building characters, and a few references to icecream.

===[[User:Summerscythe|Summerscythe]] 11:33, 17 June 2008 (MDT)===
Ganteka and I have also started the Friday night at the tavern, which is open for anyone, its been getting at least ten people a week. Right now theres about five people in the tavern, its getting bigger.

=== [[User:Flession|Flession]] 14:01, 18 June 2008 (MDT) ===
As for the DM problem, maybe we can all do a one-shot, and just decide who gets to be the one who runs it for the week. Maybe we can do a game similar to that story game where you pass the stick around: have a DM take a shot at running the story each week.

That's all I got so far :)



{{Forumfooter|Discussion}}
__NOTOC__

Talk:Flame Stalker Cloak (3.5e Equipment)

2008-06-18T10:55:15Z

Flession: /* Price Check */

Talk:Flame Stalker Cloak (3.5e Equipment)

2008-06-18T10:50:59Z

Flession: /* Price Check */

== Price Check ==

Umm...I don't think something with those kind of abilities can actually cost only 1500 gp. You might want to check up on your [[SRD:Creating Magic Items|Math]]...
I've noticed that [[SRD: Continual Flame|Continual Flame]] has absolutely nothing to do with dealing damage. If anything, the spell that is close enough for the continual effect you are looking for is [[SRD:Fire Shield|Fire Shield]], which would most defiantly increase the cost of the spell...not to include the fact that you actually have other spells added onto this cloak, which ups the cost, as per the chart. This item needs some work done.

Also, a cloak does not take up the chest slot.

...not to say I wouldn't love this cloak to be only 1200. -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 04:37, 18 June 2008 (MDT)

Talk:Flame Stalker Cloak (3.5e Equipment)

2008-06-18T10:48:06Z

Flession: /* Price Check */

== Price Check ==

Umm...I don't think something with those kind of abilities can actually cost only 1500 gp. You might want to check up on your [[SRD:Creating Magic Items|Math]]...

Also, I've noticed that [[SRD: Continual Flame|Continual Flame]] has absolutely nothing to do with dealing damage. If anything, the spell that is close enough for the continual effect you are looking for is [[SRD:Fire Shield|Fire Shield]], which would most defiantly increase the cost of the spell...not to include the fact that you actually have other spells added onto this cloak, which ups the cost, as per the chart. This item needs some work done.

...not to say I wouldn't love this cloak to be only 1200. -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 04:37, 18 June 2008 (MDT)

Talk:Flame Stalker Cloak (3.5e Equipment)

2008-06-18T10:37:36Z

Flession: Price Check

Talk:Over 100 Ways to Die (DnD Other)

2008-06-18T10:33:01Z

Flession: /* Taking Suggestions? */

===Taking Suggestions?===

If you care to take suggestions, just to get the ball rolling: crushed, eaten, beheaded(executed), hanged, choked on food, sucked into a vacuum, teleported into a wall, run over, energy drained, fall off a mountain, disease, acid, poison, vital organs removed, drawn and quartered, tortured, Harmed, blown up, turned inside out, swarmed by bugs, brain-sucked, frozen, buried alive (until dead), and fear are all I can think of right now. --[[User:Ganteka|Ganteka]] 23:24, 17 June 2008 (MDT)

:How...sadistic are you looking to get here? I can come up with more than a hundred reasons how to die, if, as Ganteka said, this is open for suggestions... -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 04:33, 18 June 2008 (MDT)

User:Flession

2008-06-18T10:24:25Z

Flession:

== Of Things Past ==

I'm somewhat still new to D&D, as I've only been playing for 7 years. Still, I have a taste for the Old school games (I love AD&D) and I do get 3.0 and 3.5 confused like the rest of you. I've come from playing in a 3-person group to having run tourney-level games.

== Current Campaigns ==

Beholder's Eye, a Planescape 3.5 Adventure

== Characters ==
Stay Tuned...

== Contributions ==
[[Captain America (DnD Optimized Character Build)|Captain America]]

[[Z Fighter (DnD Optimized Character Build)|Z Fighter]]

[[Estranged (DnD Flaw)|Estranged]]

[[Hunted (DnD Flaw)|Hunted]]

[[Worst Luck (DnD Flaw)|Worst Luck]]

== Works in Progress ==
Nothing at the moment

== On Other Places ==
[http://imr.thekeywork.com/phpbb/index.php I do a lot of PBP's here, so feel free to check it out]

{{donor|<badge>e6oI5Iq5Dv</badge>}}.

User talk:Flession

2008-06-18T09:57:14Z

Flession:

== Donation badge ==

Hello Flession, Here is a donation badge for your recent donation to D&D Wiki. It should only work on your user page and your user talk page. You may use it through the following code <code><nowiki>{{donor|<badge>e6oI5Iq5Dv</badge>}}</nowiki></code>. {{Unsigned|Blue Dragon|11:34, 6 May 2007 (MST)}}{{donor|<badge>e6oI5Iq5Dv</badge>|right}}

:Thanks for helping D&D wiki be all it can be! --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 21:08, 30 December 2007 (MST)

User talk:Kaz

2008-06-18T09:52:56Z

Flession: Welcome to the Party

== Welcome to the Party ==

Heh. Finally got you on here...now comes the next step for my takeover! MWUAHAHAHAAA! -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 03:52, 18 June 2008 (MDT)

Talk:Quadrimurfractiphobia (3.5e Flaw)

2008-06-18T07:27:44Z

Flession: /* Comment */

== Comment ==

ROFL....i know this was meant to be a joke, but im going to make this a flaw for my character!

I'll post how this works out for us later.... --[[User:Kisame93|User:Kisame93 | Ryan B.]] 17:38, 3 April 2008 (MDT)

:Great! ''':D''' I'm glad to see that people like my work (even the joke stuff). I'm looking forward to hearing about how it works out. --[[User:Daniel Draco|Daniel Draco]] 17:52, 3 April 2008 (MDT)

i do enjoy the funny stuff especially the story's that they create as an example for them. if you want, i'll post the lyrics to a song to see if you like it, you might have heard it, its the DnD song (makes fun of DnD players, but makes me laugh, i heard it on Dr.Demento. song by: The Dead Alewives)

Heres vid on youtube of guys who re-did it as a video. [http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=The+Dead+Alewives&ei=UTF-8&fr=ieas&fr2=tab-web&tnr=21&vid=1300683746 Clicky!] --[[User:Kisame93|User:Kisame93 | Ryan B.]] 18:09, 3 April 2008 (MDT) (lol, forgot again, but caught myself!)

Is there some method for us to increase the DC as the players increase in levels? -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 01:27, 18 June 2008 (MDT)

== Lyrics ==

Narrator: Dungeons and Dragons. Satan's game. Your children, like it or not, are attracted in their weaker years to the occult, and a game like D&D fuels their imagination and makes them feel special, while drawing them deeper and deeper into the bowels of El Diablo! This afternoon, the Dead Alewives' Watchtower invites you to sit in on an actual gaming session. Observe the previously unobservable as a hidden camera takes you to the Inner Sanctum of Dungeons and Dragons.
(((((DM: Golstaff, you have entered the door to the north. You are now by yourself, standing in a dark room. The pungent stench of mildew emanates from the wet dungeon walls.
Cheeto: Where are the Cheetos?
DM: They're right next to you.
Golstaff: I cast a spell.
Cheeto: Where's the Mountain Dew?
DM: In the fridge, duh!
Golstaff: I wanna cast a spell!
Cheeto: Can I have a Mountain Dew?
DM: Yes, you can have a Mountain Dew, just go get it.))))
Golstaff: I can cast any of these, right? On the list?
DM: Yes, any, any of the first level ones.
Cheeto: I'm gonna get a soda; anyone want one? Hey, Graham, I'm not in the room, right?
DM: What room?
Golstaff: I wanna cast...Magic Missile.
Cheeto: The room where he's casting all these spells from.
DM: He hasn't cast anything yet.
Golstaff: I am though, if you'd listen. I'm casting...Magic Missile.
DM: Why are you casting Magic Missile? There's nothing to attack here.
Golstaff: I...I'm attacking the darkness!

DM: Fine, fine, you attack the darkness. There's an elf in front of you.
Elf: Whoah! That's me, right?
DM: He wearing a brown tunic, and he has grey hair, and blue eyes...
Elf: No, I don't, I have grey eyes.
DM: Let me see that sheet.
Elf: Well, it says I have...Well, it says here I have blue, but I decided I wanted grey eyes.
DM: Whatever. OK, you guys can talk to each other now, if you want.
Golstaff: Hello.
Elf: Hello.
Golstaff: I am Golstaff, Sorcerer of Light.
Elf: Then how come you had to cast Magic Missile?

DM: You...you guys are being attacked.
Cheeto: Do I see that happening?
DM: No, you're outside, by the tavern.
Cheeto: Cool, I get drunk.
DM: There are seven ogres surrounding you.
Elf: How could they surround us? I had Mordenkainen's Magical Watchdog cast.
DM: No, you didn't.
Cheeto: I'm getting drunk. Are there any girls there?
Elf: I totally did! You asked me if I wanted any equipment before this adventure and I said No. But I need material components for all my spells. So I cast Mordenkainen's Faithful Watchdog.
DM: But you never actually cast it.
Cheeto: Roll the dice to see if I'm getting drunk.
DM: (rolls dice) Yeah, you are.
Cheeto: Are there any girls there?
DM: Yeah.
Elf: I did though! I completely said when you asked me!
DM: No you didn't! You didn't actually SAY that you were casting the spell. So now there's ogres. OK?!
Cheeto: Ogres! Man, I got an Ogre-Slaying knife! It's got a plus 9 against ogres.
DM: You're not there! You're getting drunk!
Cheeto: OK, but if there's any girls there, I wanna DO them!
Narrator: There you have it! A frightening look into America's most frightening pastime. Remember that it's not your children's fault that they're being drawn into a Satanic world of nightmare. It's their gym teacher's fault, for making them feel outcast, when they couldn't do one single pullup.

--[[User:Kisame93|User:Kisame93 | Ryan B.]] 18:12, 3 April 2008 (MDT)

PS: i put ((((EXAMPLE)))) around the part you could put in.

Talk:The Silver Hammer (3.5e Equipment)

2008-05-27T10:31:01Z

Flession: New page: I was actually about to make a Silver Hammer owned by a man named Maxwell...but you beat me to it. KAAAHHHNNN!!! -- ~~~~

I was actually about to make a Silver Hammer owned by a man named Maxwell...but you beat me to it.

KAAAHHHNNN!!! -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 04:31, 27 May 2008 (MDT)

Discussion:Feindish Codex II Questions.

2008-05-20T04:13:08Z

Flession:

==  ==

===[[User:Summerscythe|Summerscythe]] 18:19, 15 May 2008 (MDT)===
So i got the fiendish codex II the other day. I have two questions.

1. It has the lords of the nine's aspects. Where would I look if I actually wanted to find there actual statistics, not there aspects?

2. What exactly is a hellbred? Because if it is what it says it is in the book, isn't it kinda a template, Like could you have a hellbred elf or something, or is it more or less a a devil spawn thing or something like that?

=== [[User:TK-Squared|TK-Squared]] 18:35, 15 May 2008 (MDT) ===

For stats on the Lords of the Nine Hells, then you be wantin' Book of Vile Darkness. It's a 3.0 book, but mostly 3.5 material. Just make appropriate changes if anything's still 3.0ish.

=== [[User:Flession|Flession]] 22:13, 19 May 2008 (MDT) ===

One of my fav books, actually :)

There should be a 3.5 update of the book on the WOTC website. You just gotta do some digging. I'd bring it up, but WOTC is blocked on my work's net.



{{Forumfooter|Discussion}}
__NOTOC__

User talk:Palantini

2008-05-19T07:53:02Z

Flession:

My discussion page. Indulge.

1. MY RACES ARE ENTIRELY MY OWN CREATION IN CASE YOU ARE WONDERING-IS THIS A GOOD IDEA FOR BEGINNERS?
2. I BELIEVE LIET AL KHAN IS FROM A BOOK I HAVE READ BUT I AM NOT SURE-ANY INSIGHT?
3. IF I AM CREATING MY OWN MONSTERS AND STATS, HOW SHOULD I DETERMINE THEIR CHALLENGE LEVEL?
--[[User:Palantini|Palantini]] 22:49, 18 May 2008 (MDT)

First method: Learn to turn off caps. -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 01:53, 19 May 2008 (MDT)

Discussion:The Tavern: use, expansion, and availability.

2008-02-19T20:43:18Z

Flession: /* How can we get people into the Tavern? */

Discussion:HD Ã¢â€°Â Racial HD?

2008-02-15T02:03:45Z

Flession: /* HD ≠ Racial HD? */

== HD ≠ Racial HD? ==

=== [[User:Flession|Flession]] 00:57, 11 February 2008 (MST) ===

I was discussing with one of my players about a feat he wants. It was all well and good until he mentioned that it only effects people with Racial Hit Die. As I understood it, your Racial HD (for those creatures who don't have LA and things like that, including humans) is your regular HD. So, as it stands, as a creature with a Racial HD increases in level, so does this ability increase with him. Can anyone clarify this for me?

=== [[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 12:21, 11 February 2008 (MST) ===

A human's racial HD are HD in the Humanoid type- racial HD are "levels" in the creature's type, not levels in classes. In order to improve the ability, he would have to take levels in the Humanoid type. A creature with no base racial HD (human, ect.) can take levels in their type (humanoid for humans), like class levels, gaining BAB, saves and skill poins as in the Monster Manual, but no special abilities (like a fighter's bonus feats or a cleric's turn undead).

<h3 style="height: 0px; border-bottom: 1px solid; overflow: hidden; padding: 0; margin: 0;">Sledged-20080211132025</h3>
{| class="d20" style="padding: 0; margin: 0; text-align: left; width: 100%; border: none;" cellspacing="0"
|- class="even"
| style="font-size: larger; border: none; font-weight: bold;" | [[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 2008 February 11 13:20 (MDT)
|-
| style="border: none;" |
racial HD has nothing to do with LA. The creatures stat block gives how many racial HD it has (though it doesn't explicitly say that they are racial HD). If the creature is listed without any class levels (e.g. the [[SRD:Bugbear|bugbear]] and the [[SRD:Pixie|pixie]]), it's starting racial HD is what's given. If the creature is listed with class levels and racial HD (e.g. the [[SRD:Troll Hunter|troll hunter]]) the number of racial HD is given first (which logically, with the given example, is the same number as the standard [[SRD:Troll|troll]]). If the creature is listed with only class levels (e.g. the [[SRD:Elf|elf]]), it doesn't have any racial HD. See [[SRD:Creatures as Races#Humanoids and Class Levels|Humanoids and Class Levels]] (Note that though it's titled "Humanoids and Class Levels," the text refers to creatures in general).

Strictly by the rules, a creature can only advance it's racial HD if the creature stat block gives a HD progression in the "advancement" row. For example, a [[SRD:Black Bear|black bear]] advances by racial HD, a bugbear only advances by characer class (monster class notwithstanding), and a [[SRD:Sahuagin|sahuagin]] can advance by either/or. To the best of my knowledge, there's not a single published humanoid that can advance by racial HD.

What exactly is the feat in question, and what race is the player's character?
|- class="even"
| style="border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; font-size: smaller; line-height: 1.5em;" | ''There's no better laugh than the one that you're ashamed to share with your mother.''<div class="right">—Stephen Notley, creator of ''[http://www.angryflower.com/ Bob the Angry Flower]''</div>
''A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.''<div class="right">—Ford Prefect in "Mostly Harmless" by Douglas Adams</div>
|}

=== [[User:Flession|Flession]] 19:41, 12 February 2008 (MST) ===

The feat is called Awaken Spell Resistance. It's in the Draconomicon. He's a Warforged Sorc with the Draconic Heritage feat (thus giving him a Draconic bloodline...and believe me, he had to write a extensive back story for me in order for him to get this. Frankly, I really like his character.) The requirements for the Awaken Spell Reisistance. Its requirements are the dragon type. I felt that Dragon type and Dragonblood type aren't much different.

<h3 style="height: 0px; border-bottom: 1px solid; overflow: hidden; padding: 0; margin: 0;">Sledged-20080213122720</h3>
{| class="d20" style="padding: 0; margin: 0; text-align: left; width: 100%; border: none;" cellspacing="0"
|- class="even"
| style="font-size: larger; border: none; font-weight: bold;" | [[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 2008 February 13 12:27 (MDT)
|-
| style="border: none;" |
Ah, I see. Well, first the character doesn't qualify. Anything with the dragon type qualifies for anything that requires the dragonblood subtype, but the reverse is not true, and that's by design.

But if you're willing to make the exception for this character, here's how it will work. Because he has no racial HD he'll gain SR 0. Note that this different than not having an SR at all, because he'll be able to qualify for feats and PrCs that have SR as a prereq, but that's pretty much it.

The the same would be true for a human with the half-dragon template (either as an inherited template or by being a 10th-level [[SRD:Dragon Disciple|dragon disciple]]). The feat really wasn't meant for PC use, and they pretty much designed it so that it would be unattractive for PCs to take. Even if it granted SR equal to your total HD, it'd still be not that good of a feat, because most spellcasters you encounter are going to have caster levels that are around the same level as the PCs' ECLs (or more). So a 12th-level caster casting a spell against a 12th-level character with an SR of 12, won't even need to bother making a caster level check to overcome the SR, since at minimum result would be 13 (1d20+12).
|- class="even"
| style="border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; font-size: smaller; line-height: 1.5em;" | ''There's no better laugh than the one that you're ashamed to share with your mother.''<div class="right">—Stephen Notley, creator of ''[http://www.angryflower.com/ Bob the Angry Flower]''</div>
''A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.''<div class="right">—Ford Prefect in "Mostly Harmless" by Douglas Adams</div>
|}

=== [[User:Flession|Flession]] 19:03, 14 February 2008 (MST) ===
I appricate the clarity. That actually helps a bit.



{{Forumfooter|Discussion}}
__NOTOC__

Discussion:HD Ã¢â€°Â Racial HD?

2008-02-13T13:19:57Z

Flession: /* Flession 19:41, 12 February 2008 (MST) */

Discussion:HD Ã¢â€°Â Racial HD?

2008-02-13T02:41:13Z

Flession: /* HD ≠ Racial HD? */

Talk:Rod of Chance (3.5e Equipment)

2008-02-11T09:01:35Z

Flession: /* Name */

== Name ==

I feel that a more professional name would sound a little better, like "Rod of Chance" of something along those lines. Ideas? --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 00:44, 11 February 2008 (MST)

:Is there a effect that turns my power level over 9000? And I second what Green Dragon said-- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 02:01, 11 February 2008 (MST)

Discussion:HD Ã¢â€°Â Racial HD?

2008-02-11T07:57:43Z

Flession: New page: == HD ≠ Racial HD? == === ~~~ ~~~~~ === I was discussing with one of my players about a feat he wants. It was all well and good until he mentioned t...

Talk:Monster Ball (3.5e Equipment)

2008-02-03T06:55:04Z

Flession:

== Broken Balls and Magical Beasts ==

This is a very well made item. However, it should probably give rules on what would happen when the Monster Ball is broken with something inside it. Also, perhaps it should also be capable of holding magical beasts, to reflect the extraordinary nature of the creatures it is referencing? --[[User:Daniel Draco|Daniel Draco]] 13:52, 2 February 2008 (MST)

:Err... Pokémon??? Time for me to back away ''slowly''... --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 14:31, 2 February 2008 (MST)

::I knew I forgot something, dealing with broken balls. Adding now. As far as magical beasts, I was considering it. I did want to avoid having it be used as a primary weapon (and to justify what is a 50% reduction in cost if you follow the magic costs to the letter) so I limited it to animals, but Magic Beasts wouldn't be too unbalancing, they are mostly animals. Also... (proceeds to stalk Sam Kay). ''':D''' -- [[User:Eiji|Eiji]] 14:48, 2 February 2008 (MST)

:::Alright, I may be getting into the realm of nitpicking at this point, but what should happen if a ball is broken in an area too small to hold the contained creature? --[[User:Daniel Draco|Daniel Draco]] 19:21, 2 February 2008 (MST)

::::Physics plays a important role? -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 23:55, 2 February 2008 (MST)

Candidates for Deletion

2008-01-20T03:50:33Z

Flession: /* Pending Requests */

'''Please post below this line a page that you would want to have deleted. An admin will look it over, and delete it if necessary.'''

----

==Pending Requests==

I Created "The performer" form the to do list, but on a different page. I moved it to the page linked to the to do list and now need to second page deleted. The page i need deleted is just titled "Performer (DnD Prestige Class)" --[[User:Cerin616|Cerin616, Drew]] 09:56, 11 January 2008 (MST)

Oops, wrong catagory. I fixed it (it should have been paragon class and not prestige), but time to delete the old. <s>Ambiko (DnD Prestige Class)</s> This is it here. -- [[User:Eiji|Eiji]] 19:31, 26 October 2007 (MDT)

[[1337 Supa N00b F337 (DnD Feat)|This]] needs to be deleted for pretty obvious reasons. --[[User:Flession|Flession]] 20:50, 19 January 2008 (MST)

Also, see also all articles in [[:Category:Candidates for deletion]]
{{#dpl:debug=1
|category=Candidates for deletion
}}

==Recent Deletions==
:''see also:'' [[Special:Log/delete]]

*<s>Telling Blow</s> is, as it claims to be, copyrighted material from the [[Player's Handbook II]], and thus cannot be included on this wiki. -- [[User:Cronocke|Cronocke]] 14:39, 1 January 2008 (MST)
:Deleted. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 15:01, 1 January 2008 (MST)

*<s>User:Daniel Draco/techniquetop</s> -- This was going to be used for a class I'm working on, but I've changed how it's gonna work, so I don't need it anymore. --[[User:Daniel Draco|Daniel Draco]] 12:39, 27 August 2007 (MDT)
:Deleted. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 21:45, 27 August 2007 (MDT)

* MagiTech - I was wondering if these really should be deleted. Currently, I see both sides. One is that no one has edited these in a very long time (and they may not get edited for a very very long time to come) also there is no content on them, so they should be deleted. However, the other side is that they are labeled as "Stubs" and it is possible for someone to come along and help them. Also, <s>MagiTech (D20 Modern Equipment)</s> would look very bare without anything on it. So, they should not be deleted. Any input or opinions about whether this should stay or go would be helpful. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 12:04, 4 August 2007 (MDT)
** I was the one that posted them for deletion. I was going through stubs myself, but I saw no real reason they should exist -- there isn't even content to improve, just a name. That and as you mentioned, they have not been touched since creation. --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 19:13, 4 August 2007 (MDT)
***I remember that MagiTech is something in Final Fantasy 6. MagiTech armour... I think it might be a copyright... oh, thats magitek. But I did find that there was a Magitech corporation. It might be a copyright, but I cannot say for sure. If it is, I would delete it... --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 12:29, 14 August 2007 (MDT)
:Deleted. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 13:42, 14 August 2007 (MDT)

* Made a useless page by accident. Feel free to remove. I'm unsure of the formatting, but the URL link is <s>Discussion_talk:Rating_a_level_adjustment</s> ...just the blank extra discussion page, the actual discussion on is fine. [[User:Eiji|Eiji]] 15:55, 12 July 2007 (MDT)
:Deleted. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 12:00, 4 August 2007 (MDT)

* <s>Angel of Death: Talk</s> is a talk page on the wrong namespace. Please delete after the post has been moved. --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 20:33, 26 July 2007 (MDT). My first attempt at moving lead to a mistake. Please delete [[Talk:Angel of Death]] as well. Sorry. --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 20:56, 26 July 2007 (MDT)
:Deleted. --[[User:Mkill|Mkill]] 04:22, 27 July 2007 (MDT)

*[[W/w/w/index.php|This needs to be deleted. It's filled with spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam, and spam.]] -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 20:19, 22 July 2007 (MDT) -- page was emptied and blocked by Green Dragon. --[[User:Mkill|Mkill]] 21:58, 23 July 2007 (MDT)

<s>Could someone add the prestige classes with "shen" in their names? (i.e. dragon shen)</s> - Page with a question as a title, using a prestige class preload. --[[User:Daniel Draco|Daniel Draco]] 17:37, 4 June 2007 (MDT)
:Deleted —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:50, 4 June 2007 (MDT)

*<s>Ikki (DnD Campaign Setting)</s> - No content whatsoever, so should be deleted. [[User:EldritchNumen|EldritchNumen]] 19:11, 16 February 2007 (MST)

:*See [[Talk:Ikki (DnD Campaign Setting)]] --[[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] 21:41, 16 February 2007 (MST)

:Deleted. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 11:26, 27 April 2007 (MDT)

* <s>Image:SiegfriedArtwork.gif</s>: This is a copyrighted image from http://www.soularchive.jp/, whose [http://www.soularchive.jp/terms-e.html Terms of Use] deny permission to copy graphics. {{Unsigned|Cuthalion|20:07, 21 April 2007 (MDT)}}

:Deleted. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 13:46, 22 April 2007 (MDT)

*<s>Image:Gold piece.gif</s> - See <s>Image talk:Gold piece.gif</s> --[[User:Cuthalion|Cúthalion]] 22:00, 20 April 2007 (MDT)

:Deleted. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 15:33, 21 April 2007 (MDT)

*<s>Template:Example</s> - I meant to create this on [[wikirps:Template:Example|WikiRPS]]. Sorry. --[[User:Cuthalion|Cúthalion]] 17:56, 13 April 2007 (MDT)

:Deleted. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 22:22, 16 April 2007 (MDT)

*<s>+1d6 caster level fore every arcane spell(DnD Character Optimization), +1d6 caster level fore every arcane spell (DnD Character Optimization) (replaced bad spelling with proper page name), Young Hero of Time (DnD NPC Class), Talk:Young Hero of Time (DnD NPC Class) (not an NPC class), Organizations (The Twelve Swords Supplemnt) (misspelling), Random Nation Country Rules (DnD Variant rules), Random Nation Country Rules (DnD Variant rules) (someone mistyped move page), Hellfire and shadow Dragon (DnD Monster), Talk:Hellfire and shadow Dragon (DnD Monster), Talk:Hellfire and shadow Dragon (DnD Creature), Hellfire and shadow Dragon (DnD Creature) (has new name and those have capitalization mistakes), The Sword of Dispair (DnD Equipment) (typo).</s> Thanks for clearing out [[Special:Doubleredirects]]. [[User:Armond|Armond]] 15:18, 10 April 2007 (MDT)

:Deleted. [[User:EldritchNumen|EldritchNumen]] 16:22, 10 April 2007 (MDT)

*<s>Nations (Twelve Swords Supplement)</s> - I have combined the content of this page with another, so this page is no longer needed. Delete Request by --[[User:EaTCarbS|EaTCarbS]] 13:10, 4 April 2007 (MDT)

:Deleted. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 16:53, 5 April 2007 (MDT)

*<s>Brawler (DnD Class), Druid Variant: Exorcist (DnD Class), Liberator (DnD Class), Maverick (DnD Class)</s> -- Please delete these, '''''now''''', flame censored by author --[[User:Cuthalion|Cúthalion]] 07:13, 23 March 2007 (MDT)

:*You have made worthwhile contributions in good faith, however I cannot delete all of these yet. I deleted "Maverick (DnD Class)" because nothing linked to that page except this page and [[User Base Classes with Descriptions]] - which are both insignificant links. However, and before I can delete the other classes, please get rid of all the links to them via the "What links here" function. Once nothing links to them I can delete them without creating red links all over D&D Wiki. Thanks. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 15:55, 23 March 2007 (MDT)

::* Deleted all links to Brawler except "User Base Classes...". BTW, why are these being deleted? --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:06, 25 March 2007 (MDT)

:::* I am deleting these is because the author asked for them to be deleted — I think fulfilling a authors request is reason enough (no reason to not grant authors wishes ''':)'''). Anyway, some of these still need to have their links removed so they can be deleted... --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 22:23, 25 March 2007 (MDT)

::::: I asked (or rather, demanded) to have these deleted because I was ticked at seeing banners on my work saying what a terrible job I had done. Thank you for honoring my request. Once the current [[Talk:Druid (Evaluational Base Class Layout)|standards discussion]] settles on conclusions, I'll be happy to put them back. --[[User:Cuthalion|Cúthalion]] 18:21, 12 April 2007 (MDT)

:Deleted. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 18:10, 27 March 2007 (MDT)

*<s>Druid Protector (DnD Class), Druid Variant: Protector (DnD Class), Druid Exorcist, Liberator, Paladin Variant: Liberator (DnD Class)</s> - Deleted all links to Exorcist & Liberator. Candidates for deletion (redirects). BTW, when I removed links to Exorist from [[Talk:User Base Classes with Descriptions]], I had "Deletion Pending" in the Summary. Ignore that. --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:24, 26 March 2007 (MDT)

:Deleted. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 18:10, 27 March 2007 (MDT)

*<s>Fighter Variant: Brawler (DnD Class), Brawler</s> - Redirects that need to be deleted (made them no longer function). --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:06, 25 March 2007 (MDT)

:Deleted. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 22:23, 25 March 2007 (MDT)

*<s>Master Innitiative (D&D Fighter Feat), Talk:Selkan (DnDRace), Talk:Selkan (Dnd Race), Selkan (Dnd Race), Selkan (DnDRace), Master Innitiative (DnD Fighter Feat), Mercies Wrath (DnD SPell), Mercies Wrath (DnD Spell), Talk:Mercies Wrath (DnD SPell), Talk:Mercies Wrath (DnD Spell), Die Hard (SRD Feat), Overwhelming Critical(SRD Epic Feat)</s> - Misspellings found. <s>Psion Uncarnate (SRD Creature), Metamind (SRD Creature), Elocater (SRD Creature), Cerebremancer (SRD Creature)</s> - PrCs are not creatures. <s>Gold (SRD Creature), Babu (SRD Creature), Ogrillon (DnD Monster), Baller In Darkness (SRD Creature), Talk:Dragon, Base (DnD Monster), Thrild Swarm (DnD Monster), Creating A Pseudonatural Creature (SRD Epic Creature)</s> - Misspelled creature names. <s>Spike Armor (SRD Weapon), Hamemr, Gnome Hooked (SRD Weapon)</s> - Misspelled item name. <s>Talk:The Simbul's Spell Conjunction (DnD Spell), The Simbul's Spell Conjunction (DnD Spell)</s> - Copyright violation. -[[User:Armond|Armond]] 13:08, 20 March 2007 (MDT)

:*I deleted all the ones that have nothing linking to them. The blue ones need to be fixed (the links need to be linked to the correct location). Use "What Links Here" to find what links to the redirect in question. When you have fixed the links I will go ahead and finish deleting these. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 22:03, 20 March 2007 (MDT)

::*[[Dragon, True (SRD Creature)]] is locked, so I can't fix <s>Gold (SRD Creature)</s>. The rest are fixed. (Don't delete [[Special:DoubleRedirects]], though :P) [[User:Armond|Armond]] 08:49, 21 March 2007 (MDT)

:Deleted. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 19:36, 21 March 2007 (MDT)

*<s>User:Armond/Assassin (DnD Class) and User:Armond/Deadly Assassin (DnD Class)</s>; name went through a bit of loop-de-loops before I decided on a final name. [[User:Armond|Armond]] 16:00, 19 March 2007 (MDT)

:Deleted. [[User:EldritchNumen|EldritchNumen]] 17:02, 19 March 2007 (MDT)

*<s>HALFLINGS (SRD Race), HUMANS (SRD Race), Wilder (SRD Creature), Treant,elder (SRD Epic Creature), Universal Solven (SRD Wondrous Item), Turn of Rebuke Undead (SRD Rules), Titan,elder (SRD Epic Creature), Thrallherd (SRD Creature), Tanglefood Bag (SRD Equipment), Steamp Mephit (SRD Creature), Soulknife (SRD Creature), Slayer (SRD Creature), Sharp-Shooting (SRD Divine Feat)</s> --[[User:Armond|Armond]] 12:25, 13 March 2007 (MDT)

:*And the reason for deletion is...? --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 22:43, 13 March 2007 (MDT)

::*Misspelled double redirects. There's also a few classes listed as creatures. Note "TanglefooD Bag", "Universal Solven" (without a t), "Turn OF Rebuke Undead"... Little maintenance things like that. I've checked a couple of the "whatlinkshere" pages, and they're usually linked to by locked SRD pages. [[User:Armond|Armond]] 08:52, 14 March 2007 (MDT)

::Deleted. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 16:26, 15 March 2007 (MDT)

*<s>Knight</s> and <s>Knight (DnD Class)</s> both redirect to [[Cavalier (DnD Class)]]. Should these be deleted so one could make a Knight class later? [[User:Armond|Armond]] 08:55, 13 March 2007 (MDT)

::Deleted. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 09:41, 13 March 2007 (MDT)

*<s>Blinding(SRD Armor Enhancement)</s> & <s>Skills I (MSRD)</s> Yet another typo in page making. [[User:Armond|Armond]] 22:03, 12 March 2007 (MDT)

::Deleted. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:45, 12 March 2007 (MDT)

*<s>Broomstick (misspelled feat name), HALF-ELVES (SRD Race), HALF-ORCS (SRD Race), GNOMES (SRD Race), Forgery (SRD Skill)f, ELVES (SRD Race), DWARVES (SRD Race), Character Classes I (SRD) (unless that one's somewhat useful for some reason that I don't know about), Blinding(SRD Magic Armor Enhancement).</s> I'm gonna stop scanning the double redirects page now, please delete as many as possible. (Note these are all simply redirects to a redirect to the proper page.).

::Deleted. [[User:EldritchNumen|EldritchNumen]] 16:20, 12 March 2007 (MDT)

*<s>Board, Dire (SRD Creature), United States Colonial Marine Corps (Weapons/Armor/Equipment) and United States Colonial Marine Corps (D20 Modern Weapons/Armor/Equipment) as noone's going to type all that out when they're used to typing (D20 Equipment), The Clenched Fist of the Six-Fingered Hand (D20 Modern Monster CR 13) (combines two incorrect ways of naming a page...), Vengeful Magic Missile (Sor/Wiz 3 - D&D Spell)</s> (see previous).

::Deleted. [[User:EldritchNumen|EldritchNumen]] 16:15, 12 March 2007 (MDT)

*<s>Ember (terminology), Redgar (terminology), Krusk (terminology)</s> - These are proper names of NPCs found in the Player's Handbook and mentioned in other works which contain no OGC, so they are neither SRD nor OGC and should be removed from the wiki. --[[User:Rakankou|Rakankou]] 18:01, 11 March 2007 (MDT)

::Deleted. [[User:EldritchNumen|EldritchNumen]] 16:11, 12 March 2007 (MDT)

*<s>Half-life</s> - this page is unnecessary. The one active link on it can be reached through [[DnD Creatures]]. [[User:EldritchNumen|EldritchNumen]] 19:28, 16 February 2007 (MST)
:*This page also has nothing linking to it. I would highly suggest it to be removed as well. --[[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] 21:33, 16 February 2007 (MST)

::Deleted. [[User:EldritchNumen|EldritchNumen]] 11:49, 8 March 2007 (MST)

*<s>User D20M NPC Classes</s> - This is not needed; there are no NPC classes in D20M. [[User:EldritchNumen|EldritchNumen]] 19:27, 16 February 2007 (MST)

::Deleted. [[User:EldritchNumen|EldritchNumen]] 11:47, 8 March 2007 (MST)

*<s>User D20M NPC Classes by Type</s> - See above. [[User:EldritchNumen|EldritchNumen]] 19:27, 16 February 2007 (MST)
:*I feel that these should stay as they are to let people understand that they can '''create''' the pages if they wish to. --[[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] 21:41, 16 February 2007 (MST)
::*I feel you misunderstand. There are '''''no''''' NPC classes in D20 modern. The equivalent are called "ordinaries" and they are formed in a different way. There literally is not room for NPC classes. It would be entirely redundant and a misuse of the system to create some. --[[User:EldritchNumen|EldritchNumen]] 23:21, 16 February 2007 (MST)

::Deleted. [[User:EldritchNumen|EldritchNumen]] 11:47, 8 March 2007 (MST)

*<s>Ancient Deities (Hellas Supplement)</s> - The page is obsolete. The page being used instead is [[Deities (Hellas Supplement)]]. (This is one of my pages that I accidentally created). --[[User:EldritchNumen|EldritchNumen]] 12:06, 2 February 2007 (MST)

::Deleted --[[User:Xenophon|Xenophon]] 12:25, 2 February 2007 (MST)

*<s>Highest</s> - Obsolete redirect. I changed all the pages to redirect to the correct page ([[Highest (Carallion Supplement)]]). --[[User:EldritchNumen|EldritchNumen]] 17:45, 1 February 2007 (MST)

::Deleted. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 18:59, 1 February 2007 (MST)

* <s>Dark Pope of the Final Church (D20 Modern Monster CR 11)</s> because it is a poorly named double of the [[Dark Pope of the Final Church (D20 Modern Monster)]] page. --[[User:EldritchNumen|EldritchNumen]] 15:16, 18 December 2006 (MST)

::There are several others like this (with CR in the name, where it shouldn't be-- not good for standards); I'll list them all here later today or tomorrow when I get time (there are about 8 more that will also need the boot. The pages are all backed up and linked; the pages with cr in the name are now obsolete). --[[User:EldritchNumen|EldritchNumen]] 15:31, 18 December 2006 (MST)

:::Done & okay with leaving them here later. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 16:02, 18 December 2006 (MST)

* <s>MyClass (DnD Class)</s> - This pages needs to be deleted because it is a direct copyright violation. - Delete request by [[User:Xenophon|Xenophon]] 16:29, 9 December 2006 (MST)

::Done. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 18:18, 9 December 2006 (MST)

* <s>Thiefling Character options</s> - This pages needs to be deleted because I missed something in changing the title, created another title, and as a result made a double redirect. - Delete request by [[User:Xenophon|Xenophon]] 04:13, 7 December 2006 (MST)

::Done. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 07:06, 7 December 2006 (MST)

* <s>IP address</s> - Nothing links to it. If needed users can link directly to Wikipedia. - Delete request by [[User:Xenophon|Xenophon]] 15:00, 6 December 2006 (MST)
::Except this page ;). It's now gone. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 20:56, 6 December 2006 (MST)

*<s>Talk:Nerul's Shit Spray (DnD Spell or Power)</s> - the talk page needs to go just like the article. -[[User:EldritchNumen|EldritchNumen]] 16:44, 5 December 2006 (MST)

::I will delete it once the discussion has resolved. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 17:01, 5 December 2006 (MST)

:::Done. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 17:15, 5 December 2006 (MST)
*<s>Death Attacks (Evaluation SRD)</s> - This pages needs to be deleted because it appears to be an obsolete redirect that is doubled. - Delete request by [[User:Xenophon|Xenophon]] 05:33, 6 November 2006 (MST). Deleted by [[User:Sledged|Sledged]] 07:57, 6 November 2006 (MST).

*<s>Vargas (Colossal+ weaponry) (DnD Character Optimization)</s>- This pages needs to be deleted because it appears to be an obsolete redirect that is doubled. - Delete request by [[User:Xenophon|Xenophon]] 05:33, 6 November 2006 (MST) Deleted by [[User:Sledged|Sledged]] 07:57, 6 November 2006 (MST).

*<s>Talk:Vargas (Colossal+ weaponry) (DnD Character Optimization)</s> - This pages needs to be deleted because it appears to be an obsolete redirect that is doubled. - Delete request by [[User:Xenophon|Xenophon]] 05:33, 6 November 2006 (MST) Deleted by [[User:Sledged|Sledged]] 07:57, 6 November 2006 (MST).

*<s>Parlour Tricks(DnD Special and Magical Feat)</s> - This pages needs to be deleted because it appears to be an obsolete redirect that is doubled. - Delete request by [[User:Xenophon|Xenophon]] 05:33, 6 November 2006 (MST) Deleted by [[User:Sledged|Sledged]] 07:57, 6 November 2006 (MST).

* <strike>Category:DnD Classes, Prestige</strike> and <strike>Category:DnD User Classes, Prestige</strike> - because [[:Category:Prestige Class]] and [[User Prestige Classes]] already fill these roles. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] 14:01, 5 October 2006 (MDT)
* <strike>Talk:Additional B'er'den Feats (DnD Feats) - The page was deleted but its talk page is still there. I'm guessing the same is true for many of the other pages that have been deleted. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] 14:36, 18 August 2006 (MDT)
* Rythmic Devourer (DnD Monster)</strike> Looks like it was meant to be added as a candidate a while ago. --[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] 11:31, 31 July 2006 (MDT) – Deleted by [[User:Blue Dragon]]
*<strike>(See '''[[Talk:Oneiros/Categories]]''' for discussion of the following deletes:)
**Category: Age of Titans - Added "Setting" to new category name for clarity - Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 09:23, 28 July 2006 (MDT)
**Category: Carallion - Added "Setting" to new category name for clarity - Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 09:23, 28 July 2006 (MDT)
**Category: Desperado Desert - Added "Setting" to new category name for clarity - Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 09:23, 28 July 2006 (MDT)
**Category: Eiren, The Middle Lands - Added "Setting" to new category name for clarity - Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 09:23, 28 July 2006 (MDT)
**Category: Land of Eritun - Added "Setting" to new category name for clarity - Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 09:23, 28 July 2006 (MDT)
**Category: Land of Everlasting Winter - Added "Setting" to new category name for clarity - Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 09:23, 28 July 2006 (MDT)
**Category: Lands of Blamakar - Added "Setting" to new category name for clarity - Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 09:23, 28 July 2006 (MDT)
**Category: Realm of Vemyn - Added "Setting" to new category name for clarity - Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 09:23, 28 July 2006 (MDT)
**Category: Sewer Rats - Added "Setting" to new category name for clarity - Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 09:23, 28 July 2006 (MDT)
**Category: Thammun-Ra Desert - Added "Setting" to new category name for clarity - Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 09:23, 28 July 2006 (MDT)
**Category: Thyllors: Murkwall - Added "Setting" to new category name for clarity - Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 09:23, 28 July 2006 (MDT)
**Category: White Angel - Added "Setting" to new category name for clarity - Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 09:23, 28 July 2006 (MDT)
**Category: Wikiworld - Added "Setting" to new category name for clarity - Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 09:23, 28 July 2006 (MDT)</strike> – '''All deleted by [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]]'''
*<strike>Category:Campaign Setting</strike> - Simplified to just [[:Category:Setting]] - [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 14:09, 27 July 2006 (MDT) – Deleted by [[User:Blue Dragon]]
*<strike>Template:GreenTable</strike> - Was suppose to be User subpage. - Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 12:49, 27 July 2006 (MDT) – Deleted by [[User:Blue Dragon]]
*<strike>Category:Gargatuan</strike> - Because I have an English degree and I still can't type - Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 14:05, 26 July 2006 (MDT) – Deleted by [[User:Blue Dragon]]
*<strike>Category:Terms</strike> - Not following my own guidelines on singular names - converted to [[:Category:Term]] - Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 11:16, 26 July 2006 (MDT) – Deleted by [[User:Blue Dragon]]
*<strike>Category:Rules</strike> - Ditto. Converted to [[:Category:Rule]] - Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 11:16, 26 July 2006 (MDT) – Deleted by [[User:Blue Dragon]]
*<strike>DnD Tremors Movies and self-made</strike> - Converted to Category - Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 14:04, 25 July 2006 (MDT) – Deleted by [[User:Blue Dragon]]
*<strike>DnD Darwin IV - Alien Planet Beasts</strike> - Converted to Category - Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 14:04, 25 July 2006 (MDT) – Deleted by [[User:Blue Dragon]]
*<strike>DnD Evolution</strike> - Converted to Category - Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 14:04, 25 July 2006 (MDT) – Deleted by [[User:Blue Dragon]]
*<strike>DnD Aliens</strike> - Converted to Category - Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 14:04, 25 July 2006 (MDT) – Deleted by [[User:Blue Dragon]]
*<strike>DnD Half-Life</strike> - Converted to Category - Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 14:04, 25 July 2006 (MDT) – Deleted by [[User:Blue Dragon]]
*<strike>Category:Movie Conversion</strike> - Making [[:Category:Conversion|Conversion]] and [[:Category:Movie|Movie]] separate categories - Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 13:03, 25 July 2006 – Deleted by [[User:Blue Dragon]]
* <strike>Category:CR1\6</strike> - Because I don't know how to work a forward slash... - Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 09:55, 25 July 2006 (MDT) – Deleted by [[User:Blue Dragon]] – '''Note: Forward slashes are not recommended, but can be accessed by escaping the encoding (two forward slashes in a row).'''
* <strike>Category:Inhumans</strike> - Dupe of [[:Category:Inhuman]] (trying to keep new Cat. names singular) - Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 07:47, 24 July 2006 – Deleted by [[User:Blue Dragon]]
* <strike>User Race Group</strike> - Blank copy of [[User Race Groups]] (opposite problem from above) - Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 23:15, 24 July 2006 (MDT) – Deleted by [[User:Blue Dragon]]
* <strike>Archer (DnD Class) </strike> - Deletion request by creator/ZeroTakenaka
* <strike>Dragonwarrior (DnD Prestige Class) </strike> - Deletion request by creator/ZeroTakenaka
* <strike>DnD Divine Feats, Epic</strike> - This page seems too redundant. There's already an "Epic Feats" page and a "Divine Feats" page. - Delete request by [[User:Sledged|Sledged]] 21:22, 12 July 2006 (MDT)
* <strike>DnD Least Legacy Feats, DnD Lesser Legacy Feats, and DnD Greater Legacy Feats</strike> - No need for this level of granularity, since all Legacy feats can be and are all listed on the [[DnD Legacy Feats]] page. - Delete requested by [[User:Sledged|Sledged]] 21:22, 12 July 2006 (MDT)
* <strike>B'er'den, Curled (DnD Race)</strike> Not a separate race from [[B'er'den (DnD Race)]]. See that race for further comments ''-Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 07:32, 13 July 2006 (MDT)''
* <strike>Additional B'er'den Feats (DnD Feats)</strike> The feats on the page have been broken out to their own and categorized properly ''-Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 07:32, 13 July 2006 (MDT)''
* <strike>DnD Race Groups</strike> Page has been turned into a category. See [[:Category:DnD Race Groups]] for more details ''-Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 07:32, 13 July 2006 (MDT)''
* <strike>Catgirls (DnD Race Group)</strike> Page has been turned into a category. See <s>:Category:Catgirl Race Group</s> ''-Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 07:32, 13 July 2006 (MDT)''
* <strike>Inhumans (DnD Race Group)</strike> Page has been turned into a category. See [[:Category:Inhumans Race Group]] ''-Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 07:32, 13 July 2006 (MDT)''
* <strike>Moogles (DnD Race Group)</strike> Page has been turned into a category. See [[:Category:Moogle Race Group]] ''-Delete request by [[User:Oneiros|Oneiros]] 07:32, 13 July 2006 (MDT)''
* <strike>New</strike> - Looks like this was meant to be a user page. Please wait till user has placed information elsewhere before deletion, please. - Delete request by [[User:Xenophon|Xenophon]] 05:37, 28 November 2006 (MST)
:* Page not deleted; all it needed was to be moved. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 18:39, 30 November 2006 (MST)
::* Page deleted because the title was not specific, and is not going to be referenced by anything. It is better to keep a title as non specific as "New" off of D&D Wiki. --[[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] 21:32, 16 February 2007 (MST)

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==Candidates for Deletion that were not Deleted==

*[[Spellknife (DnD Class)]] - I have pretty much abandoned this, and I see no reason for keeping it. --[[User:Daniel Draco|Daniel Draco]] 15:55, 15 June 2007 (MDT)

*:Your name can be taken off. It is already a stub so one day someone may come along and finish it. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 18:32, 16 June 2007 (MDT)

*[[Twelve Swords (DnD Campaign Setting)]] - I'm no longer working on it, so theres no reason to keep it. --[[User:EaTCarbS|EaTCarbS]] 18:19, 16 May 2007 (MDT)

:Should it just be made a stub and your name be taken off? I feel like it is such a waste to lose content... --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:36, 16 May 2007 (MDT)

:: I agree. It's got some good content and maybe someone will take up the torch one day to complete it. Plus, you have lots of cool weapons for it, so it does seem like a waste to just delete it all. -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 17:32, 19 May 2007 (MDT)

:::That would work for me. I just dont have the time to work on it. If someone else wants to do it, then thats fine--[[User:EaTCarbS|EaTCarbS]] 16:07, 20 May 2007 (MDT)

* [[Ring of sustanance (DnD Equipment)]] - Already exists in the SRD - Delete request by [[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 13:43, 19 April 2007 (MDT)

:*See [[Talk:Ring of Sustenance, Greater (DnD Equipment)]]. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 16:56, 19 April 2007 (MDT)

* [[When to Italicize and Capitalize (DnD Other)]] - This pages needs to be deleted because it has been merged with the new Help page [[Help:Standards and Formatting|Standards and Formatting]]. - Delete request by --[[User:Xenophon|Xenophon]] 12:48, 30 November 2006 (MST)

:* I'd actually recommend keeping the page seperate and creating a new page title "Standards and Guidelines" linked from the [[Dungeons and Dragons|DnD page]]. The "Standards and Guidelines" page would contain links to [[Help:Standards and Formatting]], [[When to Italicize and Capitalize (DnD Other)]], and [[Character Class Design Guidelines (DnD Other)]], and I'm sure there will be others who will come along with their own proposed guidelines, too. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] 16:48, 30 November 2006 (MST)

::* I actually merged the [[When to Italicize and Capitalize (DnD Other)]] into the [[Help:Standards and Formatting]] by use of <nowiki>{{:When to Italicize and Capitalize (DnD Other)}}</nowiki>. This page will not be deleted. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 18:39, 30 November 2006 (MST)

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Format:
<nowiki>* [[Page to be Deleted]] - This pages needs to be deleted because... - Delete request by ~~~~</nowiki>
[[Category:Meta page]]